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RE: Consumer Reports AV and their 5,500 new variants
Sep 19 2006 02:05AM
Roger A. Grimes (roger banneretcs com)
Sorry for the late reply. I've been traveling and then sick.
Nick, thanks for writing and for being gentle with me. I've respected
your work and writings for nearly two decades now. I remember you from
the FIDO NET days. I've saved some of better Nick flame mails for
I agree with most of what you said below. I disagree on one point
though...although the test isn't as professional as it could have been,
it did have its value. It's not as scientific as we may have liked, but
in my world of AV knowledge, the CR report will play some (small) role
in my understanding of the accuracy of AV products. It's not like the AV
vendors are handing out the accuracy results, so we are stuck with
whoever picks up the task and does at least a little work toward that
BTW, I make a substantial percentage of my living from payments from two
of the five largest antivirus vendors. My InfoWorld column
(http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/09/08/37OPsecadvise_1.html) and my
previous email was a friendly warning and a wakeup call to the AV
industry. Overall detection is dreadful today. I've had dozens of IW
readers confirm my attestations on AV product accuracy.
From: Nick FitzGerald [mailto:nick (at) virus-l.demon.co (dot) uk [email concealed]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:49 PM
To: FOCUS-VIRUS (at) SECURITYFOCUS (dot) COM [email concealed]
Cc: rubin (at) jhu (dot) edu [email concealed]
Subject: RE: Consumer Reports AV and their 5,500 new variants
Roger A. Grimes wrote:
> I've been doing AV for 20 years now, and supported this basic safety
> tenet, but the Consumer Reports' lab testing incident doesn't bother
So you're not bothered that what a CR test claims to measure and what it
does measure are not only not the same thing, but immeasurably different
from being the same thing?
I thought (though not living in the US, this is mediated by many
potentially biased and diverging influences) that CR prided itself in
doing and publishing meaningful, realistic, repeatable and "provable"
tests. I thought that if CR says that Car A has unacceptable stopping
distances compared to Car B and Car C, then that actually meant
something real about Car A. Sadly (for CR and its readers) that cannot
be said of any _meaningful_ measure of detectability of future malware
from the results of the test under discussion here.
The "new malware detectability" component of this test fails several of
the most fundamental criteria of CR testing, as I understand those
criteria. The "new malware detectability" component of this test is
badly designed and probably was badly performed. The lack of meaningful
details as to how this part of the test was performed alone, and
especially in light of the subsequent, sustained expert criticism of the
test, raises significant concerns about the design of these tests and
the suitability of the tester(s) running them to conceive, design and
perform such tests.
Using the car braking analogy again, as far as we can tell, this test
was analogous to different cars being tested on different road surfaces,
under different wet/dry conditions, with varying tyre compounds, and
varying inflation pressures AND with none of those variables measured,
recorded, reported or even hinted at as possibly affecting the results.
> It had a good AV expert behind the work, ...
Sorry Roger, but there I have to disagree. I have been affiliated with
or "in" the AV busines for a similar time to you and the only folk I can
ever recall claiming any "AV expertise" for the testers are, in fact,
the testers themselves. Teaching or passing a few security classes that
cover viruses and malware as a small part of the total curriculum does
not an expert AV product tester make. Further, as a one-time expert AV
product tester by employment and still closely connected with the very
small group who make up that "profession", I can honestly say that these
testers had no accepted professional standing as AV product testers
before the CR test was published, and as a result of this test they are,
by my reading, now considered amateurish, at best, within the very small
circle of professional AV product testers.
> ...tested logical goals that can only
> be tested by creating new malware programs, ...
Obviously the concept of retrospective testing, where the tester freezes
the product to be tested and then, for several months, collects newly
released/discovered malware then tests the "old" products against
increasingly newer malware (say in weekly or monthly cohorts), escapes
you, as it escaped the CR testers?
As that is clearly another logically correct way of testing the
detection of unknown malware, your and the CR testers' views of such
things are more limited than those of "more expert" testers and
Such testing has the rather undesirable (from some testers'
perspectives) property of not producing results quickly.
However, it has the rather desirable result from the perspective of the
desirability of obtaining repeatable, meaningful test results that those
results are reproducible and reflect the ability of the tested products
to detect the actual, real new malware that was produced and released
after the product under test. Repeated often enough, or on an ongoing
basis, and another disadvantage of both this and the approach taken by
the CR testers -- that the result is only a one-time snapshot of such
capabilities -- is also overcome.
> ... and was kept controlled. ...
As far as we know this has not been a problem so far.
> ... If it
> wasn't done by a professional and if great care wasn't taken to make
> sure they didn't leak, I'd be bothered. But let's be honest, at this
> point, the malware problem is so bad, the AV vendors are so bad at
> detecting them, and so many variants are being created each day, that
> the original problem of something new leaking out, just isn't the
priority it used to be.
BUT that doesn't excuse sloppy testers of accidentally releasing
something they have unethically created. And, aside from showing that
they are not proffessional (because of their inability to contain their
test samples, regardless of their real-world status), it would also put
them in breach of the "data protection" laws of most jurisdictions that
have such laws _if_ the escapee malware was soemthing of their own
creation, so despite the extent of the problem, I don't see there is any
justification for such a nonchalant attitude to such releases.
Anyway, there is no evidence, nor any actual suggestion, that the CR
testers did make such releases and in general I think this aspect of the
criticisms of the CR tests is a somewhat over-emphasized possibility.
> If I worked for an AV vendor, I'd stop my complaining and get to work
> on a better product. The state of AV protection is as bad as it has
> I've been reading about the "death of antivirus scanners" for 20 years
> now, but for the first time I think their time is nearing the end, and
> I say so in my Friday column in InfoWorld.
Sadly, the practices of computer users, combined with a bizarre notion
that every person and their dog "needs" what is effectively "admin
level" access to a general purpose computer are dead-set against
anything much better ever "working" in the sense of "achieving
acceptable market penetration", though I think that may eventually
change in the corporate sphere when stupid/lazy admins (a fair whack of
them) come to realize what they should really be doing to earn their pay
cheques (to their surprise, it has little to do with knowing what MS
shoves into its "certification" tests) and/or when the current corporate
mismanagement of IT climate changes with much of the common stupid
corporate politics removed and the staff who know what is better are
actually allowed to get on and do it rather than be dictated to by those
who can't tell their arses from their elbows.
But that has nothing to do with the flakey part of the CR tests under
discussion here, which do a great disservice to CR's reputation as a
quality testing organization.
Disclosure: Yes, I am currently under contract to an antivirus product
developer (CA). No, my remuneration is not tied in any way to their AV
products' successes or failures in the market. No, no-one from that (or
any other AV) company has suggested I write or say anything about the CR
tests and the time spent on this will not be billed to them.
Yes, I am a previous editor and product tester, and (titularly) a
Contributing Editor for Virus Bulletin magazine which no longer pays me
nor suggested blah, blah, blah. Yes, I have a very long-running
interest in improving the excellence of AV product testing whereever it
is found -- an endeavour that has had many more failures than successes,
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