Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing

Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing
Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus 2003-01-13

Sick and tired of a revolving door justice system that lets hackers skate with just a few measly years in prison? Or do you think that the courts are already too hard on online miscreants who sometimes go up the creek for longer than many killers?

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
jsingh (at) datasec (dot) us [email concealed] (1 replies)

This is one of the most intelligent things I've heard from the government concerning hackers/computer related crimes in a a long time. It looks like they might be taking a step in the right direction this time....

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fedz " VS " psychology 2003-01-13
Anonymous (3 replies)

Taking a step into the right direction? Question? What if your son or daughters were to learn more about computers, and the government takes these actions out on them. Would you still say towards your self? TAKINGA STEP INTO THE RIGHT DIRECTION ? ? ...

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fedz " VS " psychology 2003-01-13
Anonymous

what in the sam hill are you talking about? this is discussing unauthorized computer entrance and damage, not "learning about computers." the two are not synonymous, however much one of them assists the other.

at least they're asking people what they think about the sentencing guidelines... th...

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fedz " VS " psychology 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

ABSOLUTELY, If they robbed a bank, or killed someone, would I expect any different treatment from all of the other common criminals. ...

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fedz " VS " psychology 2003-01-16
Anonymous

If someone maliciously deletes everyones email in any business, there is definite harm done to that business or industry. This is not in the same league as vandalism. This is the same as armed robery or worse. A business could lose thousands, even millions, of dollars worth of sales and worse, ei...

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fedz " VS " psychology 2003-01-17
Anonymous

If my son or daughter damaged or with intent destroyed a computer, they deserve what they get. YES, a step in the right direction, I agree....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
Anonymous (1 replies)

Id be intrested in knowing what a few people's comments are on this. I personally am all rehabilitation rather than incarrceration. I think if you dont consider motivations etc. you do a great injustice to both the individual and society. I really dont think anyone deserves to lose a few years of t...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
Anonymous

Putting hackers in jail in direct contact with the very people you don't want to have this info or technology, is a very stupid thing.

Prisons are "university of crimes".

...

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Feds seek input? 2003-01-13
Internal user (1 replies)

Fedz ? seeking input in hackers? ? What is a hacker? May it be someone that may use any AI or machinery for evil purposes? ? Computers are meant to be explored ? and if computers were never explored we would never have the sort of technology we have at this moment. They developed the Internet for w...

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Feds seek input? 2003-01-17
Anonymous

But know the difference between an explorer and a deliberate actor. Doing no-nos with intent is criminal....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
Mr. Smith (3 replies)

So many times I have seen people cause millions, if not billions, of dollars of damage with virus' and/or other forms of hacking and just get slapped on the wrist! Just the fact that this continues to happen shows that the laws are not even close to though enough! If you got to spend 5 years in a ...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
dexter

How can you compare lost of money and lost of life?

You need to set your priorities straight!

There is a big difference between crime against human life and crime against anything else. Everything else is repairable, humans are not. Sure, people braking into systems should be punished, but in no ...

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Mr. Smith 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

You really think that someone who intrudes into one computer deserves to go away with the worst of society for 10+ years, only to come out a ruined individual (if they come out at all)?

Consider this. These "millions of dollars" which were caused in damages were not caused by virus-writers alone....

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Mr. Smith 2003-01-17
Anonymous

I believe that Mr. Smith is talking about the person who is breaking into someone elses computer. Nothing to do with ill written programs, bad security, or slacking employees. What does any of that have to do with anything.

Point is, if they "HACK" they need to pay. Who cares about all the o...

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How about this for an idea... 2003-01-15
JConner (1 replies)

On the other hand, we have CEO's who recently stole billions and billions of dollars (and I gaurantee you they still are) yet these who got caught were not only slapped on the wrist but were never even considered to do hard time. Which is worse? The blackhat cracker who creates and distributes a v...

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How about this for an idea... 2003-01-17
Anony

i can't understand why anyone thinks its a good thing for hackers to continue without prosecution. first its a invation of privacy, alot of people have personal information they keep on their pc's. diaries, home pictures, personal emails u keep those in safe places, they are very personal. think mo...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
kchito

Why they don't charge against companies like Microsoft that make a lot of money with their crap software and each time a virus is sent is against all their well known OS holes?. Do they deserve a punish also?...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-13
Anonymous (2 replies)

"The law also created new penalties for hackers who literally kill people over the Internet."

Uhhh...Hmmm...that's just insane. Looks like somebody saw _Swordfish_ or _Antitrust_ and thought the people on the screen were more than just actors playing a role.

Hackers are the reason you can re...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-13
Anonymous (6 replies)

idiot. troll.

c'mon, the whole hacker definition debate was played out a long time ago. i'd say a hacker that kills someone is a criminal. there, problem solved. shut up....

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WTF?!? 2003-01-13
Anonymous (2 replies)

how do you kill someone through a computer in the first place? I mean you can cause an indirect chain reaction to cause the businuss of some person to go bankrupt but thats as far as it goes......

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
jcomeau (at) risp (dot) org [email concealed] (1 replies)

"how do you kill someone through a computer in the first place? I mean you can cause an indirect chain reaction to cause the businuss of some person to go bankrupt but thats as far as it goes..."

They may have been thinking of the Therac-25, a radiation machine which, due to a bug in the software...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

If someone is "stupid enough to do such a thing" then they should also be held accountable for their gross negligence.

This situation is not solely the fault of "hackers", but also the fault of people using technology of which they are entirely ignorant. Companies should be held to standards when...

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WTF?!? -- analysis 2003-01-15
JConner

I agree...however, not criminally. This would be a punitive damage case. It would be civil. Eventually, said companies would clean their act up.

I'd like to say also, that this comment (the guy who started this thread) is not a troll. I agree with him that people are truly ignorant for the mo...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
KW

"how do you kill someone through a computer in the first place?"

You mean like hacking into the administration of a hospital and change some patients data? No, he does not kill somebody himself, but he the patient dies because of this, he sure is responsible. ...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-13
Anonymous

"c'mon, the whole hacker definition debate was played out a long time ago."

Well it's blatantly obvious that it hasn't.

"problem solved. shut up."

I guess in your assumed infinite wisdom you believe this...sad really.

"idiot. troll."

*sigh* I'm gonna wager that is your reply to everyt...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
Kristi (2 replies)

Yes, "hacker" has been defined many times, but some people obviously didn't get the memo. A hacker would never go out and kill someone. The more correct term would be "cracker" and if he or she DID kill someone, then isn't that just plain murder? Who cares if they used the internet to choose the ...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

Exactly.... Criminals using computers are not hackers they are criminals..... ...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-15
Anonymous

Mission critical machines like running hospitals should not be on the net in the fist place. It was never deigned for that purpose, mabe we should come up witha law that punish those people that are responsible for the network....

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

"The law also created new penalties for hackers who literally kill people over the Internet."

i agree they are being ignorant by blaming hackers, but its not about choosing vitoms. they are saying that (i guess through some strange technology, maybe shooting people cd-trays out so fast the cd-ro...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-15
Anonymous

Yes, hackers are killing people by the thousands over the internet.

And that LINUX must have SOMETHING To do with it.

;)...

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Here are some points to consider, also a response to the dimwitted "troll" insult which told someone to shut up. 2003-01-14
Someone who has worked both sides. (1 replies)

You call them a troll for stating the truth? The cluephone is ringing for you my friend, please answer it this time.

Also, for anyone reading, I could have s/hack/crack/ig throughout this whole article, but cracker is one-letter longer than hacker, so I am using the words interchangeably.

As f...

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Hooray! 2003-01-15
Anonymous

Finally! A sensible post focusing on the subject of Kevin's column, namely SENTENCING GUIDELINES.

Most of the suggestions seem reasonable to me. Certainly something has to be done about the way companies currently estimate losses. We all know that the effects of virii attacks are massively ove...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
Anonymous

and name calling was played out after 5th grade, but that didnt stop you now did it?

go read the cathedral and the bazaar before you report back......

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WTF?!? 2003-01-14
BOOTLEG (bootleg (at) charter (dot) net [email concealed]) (1 replies)

WHOAAA there Bucko......

I've been a well known hacker since the very beginnings of hackers and there has never yet been a consensus, even by the hacker community, of the definition of what a hacker is!

I too have thought about this for decades and I've been in

the very middle hackers and thei...

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Definition of "hacker". 2003-01-15
Person who thinks terrorism doesn't exist beyond crime.

The old definitions of hacker are gone. Not because we believe they are, but because the majority (read: ignorant media with twits for reporters) have tarnished the word.

Arguing forgotten definitions does little to help or contribute to the current topic, no matter how much we agree that a "hack...

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WTF?!? 2003-01-15
Anonymous

Whatever you must be a hacker, so if what hackers do is not criminal then what is? If I break into your house while your away but I don't take anything. And I just go through you refrigirator, closet, personal items and the like. Is that breaking into your home or was I just being curious because I ...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
Maverick (3 replies)

I'm with Mr. Smith. Some of the more liberal comments remind me of skiing this weekend. I sat beside two teenagers who were discussing their shoplifting habits. One asked the other, "Do you feel bad about it?" The other's reply was, "Well, if I took a shirt and then, didn't like it and didn't we...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Anonymous

ditto, ditto, ditto, on responsibility and accountability. We're too quick to mitigate the true cost associated with unauthorized entry, as well as unwanted pron SPAM that should also carry a heavy punishment....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Responsibility and accountability. (2 replies)

Yes, we need responsibility and accountability. However, we need to effectively implement these things. We need to:

- Do away with "terrorism" as a legal definition, because there is *NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER* between terrorism and crime.

- Hold companies responsible for securing their resour...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
KW (1 replies)

No difference between a crime and terrorism? Sure there is, at least in the way I look at it.

I agree that to perform an act of terrorism, you will always commit a crime, but there is a difference.

A crime is commit for a certain goal, be it personal gain/satisfaction or revenge. This will traumat...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-15
Terrorism? Please.

You say that "terrorism" is a crime that has no goal other than to inflict terror? So, is rape a crime, or a terrorist action? Your definition is flawed beyond belief.

Computer crimes should be treated as crimes and nothing more. They aren't "TERRORIST" actions, they are crimes....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Bloofar

I agree with most of the points stated, but I disagree with the concept of terrorism being the same thing as crime.

Terrorism is when someone commits a crime as a statement against something, or for the havok that it creates. Terrorists don't always have a goal in mind, other than to "screw with ...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
BOOTLEG (bootleg (at) charter (dot) net [email concealed])

Agreed!

But does it suprise anyone to see this behavior becomming the norm when there is NO Accountability nor Responsibility

at the very top of our goverrnment and huge corporations?

If we are to clean house thoroughly, lets take out the garbage upstairs too and lets clean there THOROUGHLY fi...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-13
Anonymous

Leave your car keys in the ignition and you are also liable for any damages incurred by your stolen automobile.

But life in prison thanks to Bush and the Patriot Act?

The Billy Grahmmers are still trying to legislate morality....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
JL

It doesn't seem fair that anyone should have to serve time for exploring computers. The people who break the laws live outside our country and don't face our rules or problems. It would be unfair to make laws that hurt our own people. Most of the people who've written the publicly noticeable worms a...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Anonymous (1 replies)

Hacking isn't what everyone thinks about exploring cyberspace and it's wonders. It should never be misused for criminal or destruction purposes. Thou some will never use their knowledge for useful purposes. So no I think that hackers should not be enprisoned for trivial purposes. Only if they ar...

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Exploration of data? Please. 2003-01-14
"Explorer" (2 replies)

Heh. The "exploration of computers" theory is entirely out of place. If someone explores your house while you are home or not, are they violating a law? 'nuff said.

However, intrusions need to be sentenced adequately and not ZEALOUSLY like the current government thinks. Prosecuting them under the...

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Exploration of data? Please. 2003-01-15
Anonymous

I'll agree it's a criminal issue -- and that reclassifying criminal acts as terrorism just to up the ante in prosecution or sentencing isn't helpful.

However, there are such things as terrorists. But that's a separate topic....

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Exploration of data? Please. 2003-01-16
Anonymous

ferinhite 451 was about stopping people from sharing ideas. hacking is about stealing, be it files or money or account numbers or ideas. if i have a file on my pc outlining a new buisness idea, and some hacker steals it, that is theft.

hacking is more like 1984. ...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Fleshwound

Considering the state of the US economy, public education etc. I really think the government should invest more time and effort into those things, as opposed to arresting 16 year old boys that download a bunch of .mp3s. Kevin Mitnick spent way to long in prison for something that really should have ...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
BOOTLEG

Why doesn't the commission simply go to a Hacker Convention and speak as a panel to the audience asking these questions.

They can even set up at a vendors booth to talk to people.

I for one am surely interested in asking them why they don't INCREASE the penalties to "Life" for any government offi...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-14
Anonymous

The fact that they need input just goes to show they cant judge the crime (is it actually even a crime?) 40 years on from when it started...

Just another example of how the world moved to fast....

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Before Sentencing, Setting The Standards - Guidelines - 2003-01-15
Your Everyday Internaut <sabb66 (at) hotmail (dot) com [email concealed]>

Of all the "viewpoints" posted on this discussion board, I believe (imho) that a single user was able to demonstrate reliable guidelines (in terms of ethical laws against "hackers" and computer-related crimes). Surely, his multilateral assimilation of the conditions and premises that are to be taken...

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It is a crime, they should be punished. 2003-01-15
Anonymous (2 replies)

If I pay a thousand dollars for my computer, I have a right to it. If someone hacks into it, they are stealing from me. There may be a fight about definitions, but in the end they used something which I own.

I think that if someone breaks into your computer, they should have a punishment worse t...

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It is a crime, they should be punished. 2003-01-15
Anonymous (1 replies)

You should already be scared to shop online in the first place.

Now, if someone does break into your computer, yes that scares you. Should they be punished worse than normal breaking and entering? If your home was burglarized, would you feel safe going to sleep at night? What about if someone ha...

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It is a crime, they should be punished. 2003-01-16
Anonymous

I know I own my computer. I know if you hack into it without my permission, you should be held responsible. You have no respect for anything. I have firewalls and detection programs running. If someone tries to break in my system, I save all the data and turn it over to the police. You must understa...

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It is a crime, they should be punished. 2003-01-15
Anonymous (1 replies)

Just because someone gains access to your computer does not mean they are stealing, same way with breaking into a house, and not taking anything, that falls under the term "breaking and entering". Why should someone who breaks into a computer goto jail longer than someone who breaks into a house ? P...

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It is a crime, they should be punished. 2003-01-16
Anonymous

Hi. Good points. My main argument was if I knew a bunch of teenagers hacked my system, would I spend money on-line? No. In the past I have made many purchases from amazon and pricewatch. Now I do not like using them. I saw a piece on 60 minuites (a news program on TV) which showed a woman who's cred...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-15
Anonymous

picture this, a women in the middle of a wall mart chooses to talk off her clothes then scream for the police to come and arrest all people who saw her stripping ! is not that insane . if you choose to connect to the internet then you should know the consequences - you will not have privacy . that i...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-15
blastfurnas

ok, you talking about making the punishment worse than if they were to break into your house...you would feel safer if someone were looking through your house, where you and possibly your family lives, where you sleep, than if someone where to be looking at the information in your computer? you woul...

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Intelligent discussion -- ? 2003-01-15
Anonymous (1 replies)

Ah, the beauty of an open forum...but I'm reminded of the SETI gag where someone suggests a concerted effort to find some *terrestrial* intelligence first.

I would suggest that the issue is -- and should be -- about CRIME. Not "cyber-" and not "computer-", just crime.

The computer is a means,...

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Intelligent discussion -- ? 2003-01-16
Anonymous

I agree with what you said 100%. But hacking should also be an offense by itself. ...

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Stupidity is contagious 2003-01-15
Anonymous (1 replies)

Look it's simply about economics. The whole mis-use of the term hackers to the laws currently being discussed and the global laws alreaady being 'approved' by the global law making bodies.

Understand that to have someone who specializes in making computers safe for others to use (PEN-testers to ...

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Stupidity is contagious 2003-01-16
Anonymous (1 replies)

Who are you to suggest that because security is not perfect you have a right to exploit it? It is like saying if someone is weak, I have a right to beat them up. Anwser one question, what right do you have to someone else's computer? What right do I have toward yours? If you want to do some good, fi...

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Stupidity is contagious 2003-01-16
Anonymous

Please read the original post prior to your reply. Either that or the reply to this submission was to another post and I'm taking it out of context.

I ran PEN-test for companies for 5 years because I got paid to do so, that is what PEN-testers do for a living. Essentially There is a legal agree...

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-15
Anonymous (1 replies)

I believe the current sentencing structure that makes hacking equivalent to embezzlement, et al, is correct. Hacking is a crime and should be punished in correspondence to the damage it caused. However, there is a burden on the victim to prove the amount of that damage....

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Feds seek public input on hacker sentencing 2003-01-16
Anonymous

prove, but now they would prefer to exaggerate it to increase the sentence....

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House analogy out of place 2003-01-15
Anonymous

If you have a house you put locks on the door. If you put really bad locks on the doors (skeleton locks) the insurance companies will not pay for your damages. Why? Because they are not secure. If a company sells you a lock it says is secure and a novice can get through it in seconds, who bears most...

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Stupid is as Feds does 2003-01-16
Anonymous

The internet was invented for the open exchange of information. It was invented for neither commercial transaction nor secure passage of confidential information. If you don't want your credit card on the web, write a check. ...

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Feds seek public input on 'hacker' sentencing 2003-01-17
United States Defense Security Intelligence Network (U.S. DSIN)

If our leadership collective within the federal government wants input in regard to “CRACKERS” not hackers (everyone get it straight – it’s been decades – figure it out) in relationship to crime and punishment, then it should be alarmed all the way to highest defense co...

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It depends on what he did!! 2003-01-17
L00l

SOme people only do this as hobby and they have in mind that no harm will be done. System intruders are generally well formed or smart persons .The intrusion is the thing which make us do security stuffs else why are we here? so we can say that thx to *REAL* ethic hackers that we found many stuffs a...

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[ ... INTENT ... ] 2003-01-18
Calvin Angelo [Calvin_Angelo (at) hushmail (dot) com [email concealed]]

INTENT

First off, I think it?s great that the Fed is seeking the public?s input regarding such issues; though I feel they really aren?t planning on doing much with our feedback anyway. We?ll see what happens. (keep your fingers crossed)

I think the most important concern in regards to ?hacking...

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