AtStake jilts Phiber Optik

AtStake jilts Phiber Optik
Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus 2000-09-01

The corporation formerly known as the L0pht courts Mark Abene, balks at his hacker past.

Their debt has been paid 2000-09-01
Alascom (paw (at) paw (dot) org [email concealed]) (3 replies)

It is tragic, that in a country the espouses forgiveness (even to Presidential philandering) that good people with past misdeeds are not given the chance to start again. The purpose of punishment in our criminal system is to pay their debt to society and to reform the criminal. Yet, no effort is t...

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Agreed, this is crap! 2000-09-01
BLKMGK (1 replies)

They've paid their debt, let them move on. Yeah, they'll never hold a DOD or higher clearance - fine I understand that. Firewall them from that sort of work, let them build tools, work for Unclass clients etc. What's the big deal? Other companies do this kind of thing all the time - they can't?! Or ...

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This makes me sick to my stomach 2000-09-02
Termy (at) ecad (dot) org [email concealed]

I agree, at the end of the article it states that the gentlemen has outgrown his shady activities, and that was three years ago, give me a break. 3 years go by in the blink of an eye. The holier than thou attitude and the flagrant hypocrisy of @stake and the L0pht really makes me sick.

Its too...

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Their debt has been paid (child molester babysits kids) 2000-09-03
mujahadin (at) hushmail (dot) com [email concealed]

just dont get caught.

i know about a fed who says he busted a kid on some pretty serious shit, THEN the fed several years later had to go to an isp to track down some kid porn dealers.

well, the kid he busted WORKED at the isp, and the fed was forced to deputize this kid in order to get informat...

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A presidents past 2000-09-05
f3d

In a country where our president, the most honorably leadership position possibly in the world, has admitted to smoking "the herb", someone with a 7 year old hacking/phreaking record is refused a job for it? Security companies are soon becomming the less respected media whores, wether you like it o...

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Hyprocracy and prejudice 2000-09-01
Ichinin (Ichinin (at) suespammers (dot) org [email concealed])

There is alot of hypocracy going around, "no we don't hire criminals" - How can they tell? Because the person in question does not have a criminal past (That someone does not know about)... or have a title?

There is also alot of prejudice going around, as a security researcher, alot of people thi...

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Kevin, what the hell? 2000-09-01
Dr SuSE

"The reporter is a convicted hacker."

Don't tell anyone this, Securityfocus might run a background check on you!

@Stake = @badjoke...

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More than that's unfair... 2000-09-01
uucpbrain (1 replies)

As one of those old hackers whose past hasn't been a problem...

I think that basically what these companies are thinking is: liability.

If one of their employees does something questionable while logged

onto a client's systems, can they claim they had no idea their loyal

worker would ever do s...

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but they didn't have to be assholes about it 2000-09-01
anonymouse

Considering that it's l0ft interviewing phiber0ptic, they could have treated the situation with a bit more sensivity. Having an HR weenie deliver a snarky GFY is really base. If a real l0ft member politely explained that they can't hire convicted felons, no matter how talented or qualified, perhap...

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restoration of civil rights 2000-09-01
grayarea (at) html (dot) net [email concealed] (1 replies)

No convicted hacker has yet to apply to have their

civil rights restored. Abene is a prime candidate

for this. I suggest he hire a savvy lawyer, get his

civil rights restored, and then the conviction essentially never happened, and CANNOT be used as an excuse not

to hire him. Nuff said. ALL that...

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restoration of civil rights 2000-09-01
mb (at) gti (dot) net [email concealed]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your husband work for ISS? You should list him as one of the 'dirty hackers' they're protecting, since he has a conviction on his record (as does the person who gave you that html.net account, who also works for ISS). Also, the person who hacked the greenpeace....

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Ha 2000-09-01
Z0mn

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that L0pht wouldn't hire Phiber Optik?

This disgusting display of ignorance and arrogance by L0pht has caused my respect for them to erode greatly. What kind of security company would refuse to hire Phiber Optik? So he's a convicted felon. I'm sure that nobo...

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What do you mean, they didn't know?!? 2000-09-01
H Carvey <keydet89 (at) yahoo (dot) com [email concealed]>

@Stake made a business decision not to hire Mark Abene...you really can't fault them for that. After all, they don't owe him employment (or anything for that matter) in any way.

However, I find it very hard to believe that someone hadn't said something earlier on in the process. It's almost as ...

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So what?!? 2000-09-01
H Carvey <keydet89 (at) yahoo (dot) com [email concealed]>

Is someone getting turned down for a job really that news worthy? ...

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Is all about the money 2000-09-01
Legion

I believe part of the reason why companies tend to stay away from Individuals such as Phiber Optik is because of the amount of misleading information the media has give hackers the past few years. This isn?t about Phiber Optik having a pass record, this is all about money, They want to make their cl...

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Why *did* Space Rogue leave @Stake 2000-09-01
CString (1 replies)

I'm very curious about this. Keep in mind, it's none of my business, but, I am very intriqued by the surrounding circumstances. Why would he quit just when the money's coming in? If he left voluntarily, why did he give up HNN? It makes no sense. So, was he kicked out, or what? ...

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Why *did* Space Rogue leave @Stake 2000-09-05
Space Rogue

I was fired. Plain and simple.

Why?

While I would love to go into a long involved detailed explanation of the whole sordid affair I am currently in legal negotiations with them and do not wish to jeopordise the outcome.

As for HNN, it was technically property of L0pht and became property ...

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If i have a computer Company, I would be gald to hire Phiber Optics 2000-09-01
Eksploit

People, those companies that hire those bunch of geeks that site on the computer, and know what they learned in school are not the sloution of making a secure company. Bill Gates used to be a hacker. Hackers know every single piece in the Computer and Networks including Security. So if these compan...

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Why should @Stake hire him? 2000-09-01
livid (1 replies)

I have long thought that the hacker hype is way overdone. It doesn't take a conviction, or a list of illegal accomplishments to prove one's worth in the security space. I also think that someone with a background in networking or programming has a much better chance of becoming a good security pro...

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Why should @Stake hire him? (why shouldn't they?) 2000-09-02
hal0joneZ (1 replies)

The fundamental problem with your commentary livid is that those self same people with a background in `networking' or programming who are genuinely worth employing, are almost always also people who have an urge to explore their environment. Systems & places, (which, often, for spurious, fear induc...

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Why should @Stake hire him? (why shouldn't they?) 2000-09-04
joe mama (1 replies)

there are plenty of white-hat hackers (myself included) who have never illegally entered a computer or defaced a web page or poked their noses where they shouldn't be.

it sounds like an excuse to say 'everybody does it, therefore it"s okay.' no, not everybody does it, and it's certainly not ok...

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Why should @Stake be willing to hire people with convictions? 2000-09-04
Halo (1 replies)

In my country the damned police themselves are allowed previous misdemeanour convictions, & police corruption is very nearly non-existant. What makes you think that a conviction free record in an e-security firm employee is any more vital? I'm not even interested in your comment it shows blatant lac...

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Why should @Stake be willing to hire people with convictions? 2000-09-05

Even if Abene's hiring was declined solely for media reasons, what of it? A company has the right not to hire anyone who will scare away clients. By hiring people they know to have a criminal record, they would put themselves in a bad position that would probably lose more business than his expertis...

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heh... lamers... 2000-09-02
DAQ42 (2 replies)

he got caught. it's that simple. you have to wonder about someone who is supposed to be skilled at "hacking" or "phreaking" or "cracking" and they got caught. i would have to agree with the "big, evil, hypocritic corporation" on this one. the guys at @stake weren't caught, they didn't make mista...

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shrug 2000-09-02

I don't know. Mark Abene was very adept at tinkering with systems he was not authorized to access. He and his group were far better than your run-of-the-mill script kiddies. They were smarter than most, too; one of them was valedictorian of his high school (Paul Stira, "Scorpion"). Think of some...

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re: heh... lamers... 2000-09-02
medivh

True... many people play the game, but not all of them play well.

You have to know how to screw the game... while not letting the game screw you....

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The "clean room" stupidity..... 2000-09-02
Mike Roadancer (2 replies)

There is this new bunch of folks (Notice I did not call them hackers) who once were hackers, had ties to the community, and bathed in the community spotlight... till they folded their values for money. The funny thing is that most in this new "clean room" group comitted acts that they were never ca...

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Hypocrisy 2000-09-02
The Dodger (1 replies)

I agree with Mike. I used to respect the l0pht guys, but I'm afraid that this is a sad day. I'd love to ask the l0pht team to swear on a Bible that they have never broken the law in their lives - I know what I think the truth is.

I don't think there's anything wrong with moving on from hacking, "...

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Hypocrisy 2000-09-02
Me

So what exactly is the big deal ?

Company X rejects applicant Y for reason Z.

Woopy Doo. Happens all the time, for a variety of reasons.

A business chooses itself how to run itself, they are the ones who have the final say, should potential employees demand the right to be employed ?

Each comp...

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re: The 'clean room' 2000-09-02
medivh

The only real reason a _real_ hacker does what he does is because he is curious and wants to learn. It's not about looking cool to some other kids or getting skript kiddie revenge-- it's about gaining the knowlege that the manuals don't teach you and everyone else in the game wishes they knew

.....

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People don?t change, they become who they rilley are. 2000-09-02
Craig Borchardt

An employer should use discretion if a employee is convicted of a crime. There are several factors that need to be taken into account. I work in law enforcement and feel that if someone is open and honest, and can offer a reasonable explanation for their actions they should get a chance. People don?...

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The l0pht goes soft 2000-09-02
servertr0uble

What we all have to understand is that the l0pht guys do not own @stake, they have a job there like anyone else it is a for profit corporation and the rules are set by whomever is deinated to oversee that part of business operations however i would not for one second trust any of the l0pht guys if i...

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@stake = more uptight than Ernst & Young 2000-09-02

I can't understand how a company that is supposed to be

"down with the underground" can bitch phiber when E&Y hired him. Of the two companies who would you expect to be more tight assed? Apparently it's @stake, just friggin weak.

So much for the credibility they got from the l0pht, great way to...

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Amen 2000-09-02
marahnemo

As an woman with a criminal record, you'd better be damn sure that you find a company that's going to be understanding and silent about whatever is revealed in your background check. Assuming that the company would have hired him, would he have gained anything more than a paycheck by compromising h...

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I can Recognise this hypocracy in myself 2000-09-03
Dr phun

The thing that makes me a little sad about all of this, is thatI can recognise this hypocracy in myself. 8-9 years ago when I was in university I kind of made myself notorious for the exploits that I got up to on the university network and the then-arpanet (I think that was what the australian arm o...

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Hiring Hackers 2000-09-03
Graham Burgess

I would prefer to have a hacker on my security staff even if he has a conviction for hacking. My main reason being to be that good would mean that you should within reason be able to work out how to stop other more malious hackers getting into systems.

Just reminds me of the old phrase "the best...

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A bit nieve 2000-09-03
Jeffery McLean (1 replies)

Quite a few things to note... first the term is cracker... in the 1980s a lot of crackers didn't know better but today... keep up with the tech and terminology...

Calling himself a hacker now I'd start to doupt he is up to date... you can't break into computers using 1970/1980 techniques...

Seco...

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Agreed. It's not @stake's fault. 2000-09-05

You make a lot of good points there.

Especially important is that a person's skills tend to dictate a field of jobs, not just one, and that some of those specific jobs carry too much liability to trust with a criminal. An ex-burglar might help security companies develop a better alarm system but ...

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Weird 2000-09-04
Sacha Ligthert

The guy has his own little company, and still he doesn't get hired. WTF??...

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Understandable in certain positions 2000-09-04
Steve

Because @Stake is a consulting organization, I can understand thier decisions. It is unfortunate, but many of the big clients that a consulting org is going to try and attract will not want convicted criminals working for them.

Maybe Phiber Optic should look into doing research and development....

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Would you really want someone working for you who wasn't good enough not to get caught? 2000-09-04
krispi

...

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Damage: L0pht vs Abene 2000-09-04
dmp

Whether or not anyone at @Stake / L0pht has a criminal record or not, it is interesting to consider who has been responsible for more damage to computer systems L0pht or Mark Abene? Then answer is probably L0pht due to the effects of the products and vulnerabilities they have released. In fact L0p...

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Elite Hackers are rats 2000-09-05
Mike

Whether or not a hacker gets arrested is not always a question of his lack of ability. More often it is the product of a punk rat who informs on his buddies to stay out of prison. So think about that next time you glorify people for being elite because they never get caught. Spineless sellout or con...

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@stake is in the business of TRUST 2000-09-06
xbow

@stake is a security company. They are in the business of selling TRUST. For the company that knows little about security, it's less of a question of @stake's technical ability (which I'm sure is top-notch), than whether or not they can be _trusted_ to secure a company's network. It's obvious that t...

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Binary skill? Get real. 2000-09-06
ph3nom

So above a certain skill level you can't get caught?

Get real.

Hackers attempt to exert influance over complex systems designed (often) to hinder them from doing just that. Within that 'game' there are ALWAYS so many unknowns that skill does little more than weigh the outcome of any given skir...

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A Text On The Topic 2000-09-09
PsychoSpy

Hey,

This is complete idiodicy. How @Stake can be so hypocritical racks my brain.

Either way, a good friend of mine, The Clone, wrote a peice on this issue.

It is located at:

http://www.nettwerked.net/hh.txt

L0pht used to be a group whome I personally looked upto as role models in the i...

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