'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates

'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates
Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus 2002-09-24

A raid on the alleged author of a well-known hacker toolkit is raising eyebrows among electronic civil libertarians, and putting security researchers on guard.

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
dlEEb (2 replies)

If prosecution is brought against him for the toolkit, then the the manufacturer of the compiler/assembler/linker he may have used should share the docket with him.. (tools, aiding and abetting, 'used in the comission of a crime', etc. would reasonably apply, I should think.) So, it probably won't c...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
kleencut

I guess the main question here is whether T0rn intended to facilitate a malicious act. If the UK doesn't make this differentiation, then they might as well start prosecuting the glass-cutter manufacturers whose products are used in break-ins and laundromats for disseminating wire hangers which have ...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-29
SY5T3MCR45H

well, in that case we should arrest bill gates for supplying us with basic networking tools which come preloaded with all windows distributions, because used in the wrong hands they could be used for malicious purposes, hell why dont we arrest everyone tht has ever written any kind of program that i...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
smeyer

As long as application writers are being prosecuted for writing applications that could potentially be used for illegal activities, we should prosecute gun manufacturers for the same reasons i.e. manufacturing guns that could potentially be used for robbery, murder etc.

...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
Anonymous (1 replies)

How about OS manufacturers such as Linux and Windows. During penetration tests and hacks many use applications built into these OS?s for attacking (e.g. telnet, browsers, net view, finger) the list is a mile long. Should they all be arrested? How do you draw the line?...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Anonymous (1 replies)

My observation (being a penetration tester and security professional) is that the government will draw the line where it is convenient. "Catching those nasty hackers" is something which every government body likes to put in the papers, etc to get the GP (general public = totally devoid of knowledge...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-01
Anonymous

Being a security professional myself, this makes me very afraid. While the government wants everyone to have secure networks, how in the heck are you supposed to see how secure your network is, if common tools can't be used!?!? Another thing, being a computer science student, this irritates me becau...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
Rafael silva

This is incredibly stupid. No comments more! bleh.

...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
Anonymous

I sort of get the impression the authorities are just getting scared of people who may know more than them. ...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
JConner (1 replies)

I find this topic very troubling. I work in the security field and I will shortly be developing applications in this field as well. I do not, in any way, proclaim to be an expert is this field, however, and indeed am always learning new and exciting things in this field. More on that in a moment....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-03
Anonymous

Given that the message was about a (stupid) decision by police in the UK, it's a shame that this reply talks exclusively about the situation in the US.

(Although many will agree with the point about corporate corruption not

being punished properly).

Can't people discuss this in an international...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
Brian Potter (1 replies)

Im pretty sure that to be guilty of a crime in uk requires some dishonesty. If your not acting "dishonestly" your not going to go down. If you make something intending it to be used for a dishonest purpose, even if it may have many "legitimate" uses, and that is your primary motivation I guess you m...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
KVS (1 replies)

HK manufactures and sells a 9mm SOCOM gun with a threaded barrel and a switch which allows it to go from semi auto to single shot with no casing ejection in single shot mode.

The features allow someone to easily add a silencer to the gun and leaves less evidence behind after firing ie..no casing...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates - Intent 2002-09-26
Anonymous (1 replies)

It's all to do with "intent", if you write a piece of software who's sole use it to attack networks then your walking a thin line, if it can also be used to protect networks then you're OK. The same goes for Gun manufacturers, guns are made for ligitimate purposes, sport or protection, NOT Murder (...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates - Intent 2002-10-07
Anonymous

Can you mention a sinle program, that can only be used for attack, and not to secure the network?

An example: I have a copy of the loveletter virus on my machine, which I have used several times to test antivirus software. I have even sent it to friends, to test their e-mail antivirus software - ...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-25
Anonymous (2 replies)

Come on folks don't you think this is going a bit overboard. I mean there is a difference between writing and publishing a rootkit with bad intentions, and writing a security tool for research purposes. I'm not a lawyer but I would think it all comes down to intent....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-28
Mamaw (1 replies)

Having been on the recieving end of 't0rn's terrorism', I can concur. I have been fighting to get this guy along with at least 3 others arrested for 3 years. There is a difference between white hat and black hat. The key words here are 'intent'. Having dealt with this guy, whom I do know his real na...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-07
Anonymous

But according to the article, he is not being arrested for attacking servers, or even intent. He was arrested for writing the tool.

Sure he should be locked away for sime time, but for the right reasons....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-30
Anonymous

> Come on folks don't you think this is going a bit overboard.

> I mean there is a difference between writing and publishing

> a rootkit with bad intentions, and writing a security tool

> for research purposes. I'm not a lawyer but I would think it

> all comes down to intent.

Who is to declar...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Anonymous

What can I say? This is a serious threat to any security concious system admin. How can anyone test the security of a network without the same tools that a malicous hacker would use. Moreover, where do authorities draw the line? Will we soon be threatened for using common windows tcp/ip tools for...

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Its a slipery sloap 2002-09-26
Pertinax

Then what, outlaw thinking and security research altogether?

Without the White Hats the security game is over. Period.

Don't discourage them and don't piss them off and push them to the other side of the fence.

Law makers just don't get it.

Pertinax...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
d

the problem is the people who're legislating these computer crime laws

know absolutely nothing about computers. how can you draft fair laws or even prosecute someone fairly when the people who are responsible for such tasks are for the most part totally ignorant when it comes to computers? doesn't ...

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Let's not try to hide behind a finger 2002-09-26
SyS64738 www.zone-h.org

The matter is clear. There are two kind of people who are coding hacking tools: those who are doing it for research purpose (doctors are sectioning dead bodies before becoming doctors)and those who are doing it with an evil intent.

Unfortunately, most of the time also those codes produced as a rese...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Anonymous@IRCnet (1 replies)

Repeat after me... "t0rn is not a whitehat", ask the regulars of IRCnet and check defacement mirror sites... It's also debatable whether he wrote all the code in t0rnkit. I suspect the police were just trying to pin him down on something, so that they could grab his machines and get substantial evid...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-07
Anonymous

Now that's a special way of law enforcement. "We think this guy did a bad thing, but we can't prove it, so let's arrest him for doing nothing wrong, so we can take his computers and look for evidence of a crime".

Writing code is not a bad thing.

Using the code for attacking others are....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Rave

If they're gonna prosecute the t0rnkit author, does that mean the feds is going to take legal action against Boeing for abetting Osama?...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Anonymous (2 replies)

Can somebody explain to me how this is a bad thing?

T0rn was not written to help you keep your site secure, it was designed to break into your site, hide it's tracks, and potientally use your site as a launching point for other bad things. Where is the redeeming social value here?...

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more on 'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
JConner (3 replies)

> Can somebody explain to me how this is a bad thing?

Excellent question! I will take a shot at this.

It's about what the government is trying to get away with now, subtley. Find a scapegoat that looks bad to the public and then do something about him. Use whatever means possible to justify...

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more on 'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-28
Anonymous (1 replies)

Dude..t0rn ain't in America! If he was in America it certainly would not have taken this long to get his arse arrested.Get a clue. If he was a white-hat have you seen any publication by him? Have you seen anyting written by him other than the t0rnkit..or have you seen the t0rnkit at all? Have you ev...

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more on 'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-07
Anonymous

You haven't seen any publication by me either, does that mean that I should be arrested too?

I'm not saying that arresting the guy is a bad thing, and I didn't see any post saying that it was. But please arrest him for attacking those systems, not for writing a tool. Otherwise it will set precede...

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more on 'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-29
Anonymous

JConnor writes: Use whatever means possible to justify action against that person to build case law to justify future injustices to the American public.

In other words, it goes back to how the justice system is suppose to work. First, laws must be written. The definition of a crime (according to...

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more on 'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates - making situation "absurdum" 2002-09-30
Oleg Kirillov

It's quite simple. Following SY's logic I'm also a hard-boiled criminal, because I can give anyone a wooden stick, or shoelace or anything else, because _any_ thing can be used to kill anyone, and I know that, and I know how. Moreover - its time to arrest and jail every man and woman because they ma...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-30
Anonymous

> Can somebody explain to me how this is a bad thing?

It may be t0rn now, but in the future it could be nmap. Who is to draw the line? Do you trust them to draw it correctly?

> T0rn was not written to help you keep your site secure, it

> was designed to break into your site, hide it's track...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
TrontyDog

Well well well, this raises a lot of questions and there are gunnna b at least two clear side to this argument. The idea that this guy is being charged with writing the rootkit is ridiculous and appalling to say the least. However if he then distributed it and did so a fashion that could have been m...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-26
Anonymous

How exactly was this kit distributed ? The only link I could come up with was Packetstormsecurity.org, so unless I am mistaken arent they the ones distributing it ?

First thing I thought about when I read about this arrest was.. where can I get this kit to test on my own system.

Anonymous (at) IRC. (dot) . [email concealed]

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
Anonymous

As a couple of people have already said, the key to this is "intent". To get a successful prosecution, they would have to prove beyond doubt that the intent was malicious and I can't see that this will be easy (even given the nature of the "software").

I would be suprised if this is the sole rea...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
Anonymous

In australia the current laws for computer releated crime's, if you are found and convicted of a computer crime you can face a min. of 12 years of prison, depending of the crime, This and the arrest of T0rn is a good example of law makers simply do not understanding the digital enviroment.The people...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

If the world follow englands example and contiune this way, will programmer have to go out to international water to program ?...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
Anonymous

pfffff who in the entire world would be stupid enough to follow the UK's lead on computer related issues anyway?...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
its ME!

hi !

the true facts are.. that you guys know nothing 1. about torn, 2. about the rootkit namely "tornkit"..

lets hit the nail on the head:

1. torn is very cool dude, but he really cant even code other things than shell scripts.. the entire kit was written in ANSI C.

2. there are 4-5 other pe...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
Anonymous@IRCnet

Yes, steps like this are bad for civil liberties, but IMO if we kick up a stink over someone who acts like a 2bit digital thug it devalues more serious complaints regarding online freedom.

As for t0rn he's part of the IRCnet scene that includes various groups such as x-org, eTC, MnM and includes ...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-27
pingpong

Ok!

I can kill your box with ping -f.

When can we expect author of ping arrested?

stupid cops, laws, lobis.....

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Then they should also arrest Smith, Wesson, Kalaschnikow 2002-09-28
Anonymous (2 replies)

and others who developed tools with which crimes were performed.

Maybe not Saddam is the perpetrator but those responsible for the 'Manhattan' Project, who prepared the groundwork....

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Then they should also arrest Smith, Wesson, Kalaschnikow 2002-10-01
Mamaw (1 replies)

OK you people this is getting stupid. Your trying to 'pick the hairs off a frog.'

We can all do quotes and stupid sayings such as, 'It isn't the car that is dangerous, its the nut behind the wheel or behind the gun.' A gun isn't dangerous until picked up then that person decides if it a good thing ...

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Then they should also arrest Smith, Wesson, Kalaschnikow 2002-10-02
paleh0rse

How about the teacher who first taught him to program or laid his foundation for understanding memory addressing and kernel modding? Or perhaps the KIDS on irc who are simply bored and helped code one of the kernel modules for the fun of it? Or the folks like myself who code exploits for research ...

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RE: Then they should also arrest Smith, Wesson, Kalaschnikow 2002-10-01
Dexter Eldritch

Yeah, let's arrest all the really bright ones: Sam Colt, Smith & Wesson, B. Tyler Henry and Oliver Winchester, John Browning, Hiram Maxim, Pietro Beretta -- let's include old Elmer Keith, too, the father of the .44 Magnum. And while we're rounding up the folks who invented things that have been use...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-30
SaltyNetguru

Someone said earlier that this was stupid, NO let me say what it really is "This is TOTAL Bullsh*t" I have nothing else to say about it!...

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He hasn't been charged yet .... 2002-09-30
Anonymous (1 replies)

Look I don't mean to be rude but the GNUist slashdot tendency has run away with itself on this one.

He was arrested but has not yet been charged. They also think he is the author of T0rn.

THEY HAVE NOT CHARGED HIM WITH WRITING T0RN !!!!

We will have to wait and see but I suspect this guy u...

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He hasn't been charged yet .... 2002-10-03
Anonymous

Oh, that makes me feel SOOOO much better. Heck, let's all have some jack-booted thugs break down my door, haul my person and my property off to 'investigate' and not charge me. Gives me a real warm fuzzy thinking of the rights being trampled there.

Oh, of course, that's right, its in the UK, so i...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-09-30
Anonymous

Intent, what a silly thing to base a law off of. The "intent" in which someone decides someone else did something can be manipulated to fit their liking. The only person who truely knows the intent is the person doing said action.

Sure, it may be obvious that a rootkit was made with bad intent....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-01
Anonymous

This is not what it seems. Go read up on this rootkit. The TornKit not only was a rootkit, it was a backdoored rootkit. Torn had writen his own little backdoor into this rootkit in the login binary.

T0rn had all the script kiddies going out and doing his dirty work. The TornKit would notify a re...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-01
ThoR

Well let me just start out with; this _really_ pissed me off. The gov is always dealing out insane sentences to computer crimes! And what does a computer crime do? It _inconveniences_ some people! Gee, don't you think killing them might be a little worse? Or maybe rape? And yet if you get busted for...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-01
Brian Powell

Finally the authorities are getting the message put out...

Playing with other people's computer equipment -or- being a part of it in any way, will get you hurt.

This is a good thing - let's hope it gives script kiddies, and the so called -White Hats- (sic) a second thought before they seek un...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-02
Anonymous

This is typical of the British under the leadership of Tony Blair. They are attacking civil liberties on all fronts and this is just the latest. If WW II were held today I would not cheer for the British....

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-02
S. Kelly

In the UK are gun and knife manufacturers held accountable when someone commits a violent crime with these weapons?...

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In the end, what it comes down to.. 2002-10-02
Anonymous

is two words, PROOF and intent.

A few posts here have stated that he was a "IRC-hooligan" and not a white-hat, etcetera. It does not matter if people on some IRC network knew this guy, or what he said he did.

The police are going to have to proove beyond resonable doubt that he did what they t...

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Gun comparisons missing the point 2002-10-03
Anonymous

The real point is what the law in the country is at the time. In some countries (eg the one I live in) it is illegal to make a gun. So if I make a gun, I have broken the law and I can be arrested, even if I only intend it to be used for good purposes.

In England (and the country I live in) it is...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-03
Anonymous

I see a bigger picture with the idea of goverments taking control of our lives, as we lose our freedom for anything that we do on a computer. I agree with the idea that if the UK is going to arrest the programmer, then the company who wrote the compiler/assembler should share the same charges. The n...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-03
Anonymous

I am not an expert in any computer field but using the law the way it is written, wouldn't it also be illegal for corporations that use tools to check if another corporation has used any of their software code. They would need to hack a computer or break code on a disc. Both require tools that would...

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Don't be wishy washy - intent is irrelevant 2002-10-04
Brian Powell (1 replies)

This person is the subject of an investigation, if it can be proved that he has gained unauthorised access to computer systems he will be charged.

So called 'white-hat' hackers and the breed who come forward saying 'I found these issues with your network' should be treated no differently than com...

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Re: Don't be wishy washy - intent is irrelevant 2005-08-10
John Steel

Bravo, Mr. Powell. I personally go that extra mile and attain the physical address of anyone who threatens to hack me. And I make sure they know I have this information. That's how strongly I feel about the invasion of my personal space in any form. And examples do need to be made. If they cross the...

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-04
Webs

Come on turn off your computers and get in line...you are all getting arrested...yes that's right you have all seen papers on vulnerabilities of software and therefore are prompt to commit ilegal activities...oh yeah...has anyone seen the guy who wrote NMAP im taking him with me too......

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'T0rn' Arrest Alarms White Hats, Advocates 2002-10-05
Anonymous

On a more serious note:

The problem with computer abuse laws is the way people look at it, lets examine this for a bit :

Around 20% of the country's population have the technical expertise required in order to break into a network(estimate), that would leave 80% of the population thinking "Yeah ha...

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