When Feds are the Crackers

When Feds are the Crackers
Mark Rasch, 2002-08-26

U.S. courts should join Russia in saying "nyet" to the FBI's lawless international hack attacks.

When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-26
Anonymous (17 replies)

I fail to get outraged over the FBI's (very clever) way of getting these bozos off the Net.

1. They aren't American citizens; they don't enjoy the rights of Americans. If these guys were terrorists and the FBI had the opportunity to infiltrate their cells, but dropped the ball, everyone would be ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-26
Anonymous (2 replies)

>They aren't American citizens; they don't enjoy the rights of Americans.

Exactly the point I read in the article. they are Russian Citizens. They are entitled to the protection of Russian laws, which the FBI had a complete disreguard for in their "tactics."

>If these guys were terrorists and...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

I guess it depends on whether you want to take an idealist look at this or a realistic one.

Ideally, yes, all citizens of all countries are entitled to protection under their own countries' laws.

Realistically, is it our job to enforce other countries laws? No.

Russia does have a point whe...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

Good point about the internet being the wild west. I don't agree with your assessment about co-operation between law agencies. Getting anything usefull from a US agency from outside the country is difficult. If you want other countries to respect our laws, we should at least make an attempt to respe...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

What is this rubbish about people not being US citizens. It should be irrelevant what nationality a person is they deserve the same rights as any other person. I'm sorry I don't believe the FBI had the right to trick these people, nor crack into foreign computers. Surely this tactic is akin to entra...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

I think that your comments purvey an attitude I (unfortunately) come upon amongst many citizens of the USA online: That is, that America is the only country in the world that matters.

Criminals in any country will commit crimes; that is why they are called criminals. With the advent of the Infor...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

Well, that was very well said.

Typically, Americans think they can do what they want, when they want, to who they want.... providing that country can't fight back of course.

Example:- Lets bomb Afghanistan. Let's do Iraq.....Now, let me see... the largest harbourer of terrorists in the world i...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Mark D. Rasch (1 replies)

Cleary, while accessing Hotmail from work, you have little expectation of privacy. Does this imply that your employer may now use your Hotmail password at ANY TIME to log in as you and read your mail? Moreover, under U.S. law, the FBI may be entitled to do what they did -- but they also broke Russ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (2 replies)

You continue to make the same faulty parallel. The court ruled that the seizure of the evidence (not the passwords, but the evidence) was legal because the machines did not reside in the U.S. and therefore they were not protected by U.S. law. My Hotmail does not reside outside the U.S. and therefo...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

Ok, looks to me like this:
1. I(the bad) break into your house.
You understand that, and try to catch me.
2. YOU (the good guy) can't catch me the
normal way, and to catch me should mean
entering MY HOUSE for obtaing some evidence.

Which one is legal and which one is not?
BOTH are illegal, ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-05
CyberVlad (1 replies)

> And your sovereignty argument falls short as well.
[skip]
> But they came, we tried them under our legal system, and
> the seizure of evidence was deemed legal

Hm-m. Two individuals violated U.S. law (btw, Russian law too). While getting evidence U.S. officials violated law of other country...

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Re: When Feds are the Crackers 2006-03-15
Anonymous

There is no LAW!
Politicians disobey it you should it either!
...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

Sure its fine to accept what the FBI did as right and just. As long as you also acknowledge that it is now also right and just for Russian KGB or agencies to break into american computers in order to enforce russian laws....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (2 replies)

No, it's not just, because we fully COOPERATE with Russians when they are trying to enforce their laws. They do not cooperate with us, at least not in any reasonable manner....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

...and when was the last time that YOU PERSONALLY tried to prosecute a case in russian court for a domestic crime?
...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-29
R U

Examples, give me examples, please.
We fully cooperate, russians do not - sounds like
Wow, THEY are the bad guys, WE are good ones - too simple approach for post-ColdWar world, don't you think?...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

I am outraged by the FBI's (not so clever) way of invading the rights of a person over whom they had no jurisdiction.

They may not be American citizens; and they may not enjoy the rights of Americans, but then the FBI are not Russians and do not enjoy the rights of Russians. You Americans already...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

1. So when American citizens break the laws of other countries those other countries are entitled to apply their laws as they see fit? What happens when an American is caught selling drugs in Thailand (a la Midnight Express), or when an American is caught stealing in some countries (cut of their han...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

What is at stake here is rights. Individuals should have certain privacy rights. Should the FBI be able to try and break into my computer without my knowledge? I don't live in the US, the FBI has no jurisdiction over me.
I think the russians are quite correct to object to this kind of infringe...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

You're right they don't enjoy the rights of American citizens but they do enjoy the rights of Russian citizens, hence Russia is prosecuting the FBI guy....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Mark Rasch (1 replies)

1. The Fourth Amendment, unlike other amendments, says, "the rights of the people to be secure in their persons, places, houses and effects..." not simply the rights of "citizens." What you advocate is permitting the wholesale abrogation of privacy of tourists, visitors, lawful residents and others...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

The Fourth Amendment, unlike other amendments, says, "the rights of the people to be secure in their persons, places, houses and effects..." not simply the rights of "citizens." What you advocate is permitting the wholesale abrogation of privacy of tourists, visitors, lawful residents and others in...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anon E. Mouse (1 replies)

You may fail to be outraged, and that is your right. As you allude, the Russians had no "expected" rights, as they are not US Citizens, and were SUSPECTED criminals (innocent under US law until proven guilty).

Howsoever, as the article states, taking digital copies of the files does not constitu...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

If *I* sniff a password on your corporate network, since your employees have no expectation of privacy there, and make digital copies of every document and database there, wouldn't you want to charge *me* with hacking or illegal computer entry/misuse under the Fabled Patriot Act? But, according to ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Yeah right (1 replies)

So reverse your argument. The Feds were not russans, They commited a crime by Russain law. Therefor the Russans now have the right to break into American computers? And if they can con passwords out of people they now have the right to break into any network the passwords have access to? Does ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

Yeah Right Said -----------------------------------
So reverse your argument. The Feds were not russans, They commited a crime by Russain law. Therefor the Russans now have the right to break into American computers? And if they can con passwords out of people they now have the right to break into ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

I totally agree with Anonymous, and could not have said it better....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

< They aren't American citizens; they don't enjoy the
< rights of Americans
- Yup, and therefore _american_ laws do not apply to them, unless FBI had done formal request for the Soviet first. FBI cannot/should not extend the borders of the USA.

...

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yes mr. bush, we non americans are all wiked villans, kill us all! 2002-08-28
pedro barreto (3 replies)

Wow!

Why the f%&k do you guys wake up every day feeling that all of earth's territory is yours?

Tell me how can password sniffing on a lan be clever? It's as clever as a system?s administrator that spys user?s mail/IM.

Why are Russian crackers considered terrorists and FBI lame_sniff_deceiv...

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yes mr. bush, we non americans are all wiked villans, kill us all! 2002-08-28
Anonymous

So right, I see what your saying, we should allow you, or whoever to go ahead and steal from us because we do have economic dominance, and a great democracy, they may have been on THIER computers when they did it, but guess what, they were using OUR COPPER, and spinning OUR HARD DRIVES. Pretty ignor...

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pretty lame 2002-09-03
septdras (1 replies)

I'm an american, and a *very* patriotic one at that. I just want to make it clear that, while I don't agree with what the FBI did in this matter, I do understand why they did it. I don't want this kind of thing to go on, b/c even if you're not a citizen of the US, I personally believe that civil rig...

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pretty lame 2002-09-04
Anonymous

Although there was no one killed by the theft of CC numbers, I as an also loyal American am tired of having to pay for the actions of other people. Do I think that it was right for the FBI to do things the way they did?? No!! But I also don't believe that the Hackers are not somehow to blame for som...

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pedro sucks 2002-09-05
Anonymous

Hi Pedro,

It's not about America against the rest of the world, it's about the method they used to stop (in this case Russian) hackers.
As we all know, many people around the globe envy the nations that have more wealth than they will ever see in their own backward country.
Wait until some frea...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

1. IF they were terrorists...

but they weren't - so what's youre point ?!

2. (with HR and Legals blessing)

you wouldnt get it - because its illegal YFNMO !...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-02
Anonymous

To quote the first reply:
Who draws the line on how many rights
non-American criminals get?

The American people ARE NOT the world's sole judge and jury. We all have rights from a governmental and humanitarian perspective. I would like to know if and howmany rights we non-american's sh...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-04
Mathew Johnston

Given that users should not expect privacy (unless they expressly attempt to gain it through encryption), I can see the legitimacy of capturing passwords and even email as it flys over the wire. However, I do not believe that this extends to using the passwords in any activity against other services...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-26
Anonymous

This situation is one that brings to light many problematic aspects of international computer crime. Although there are no real solid boundaries on the internet, geographic boundaries still exist, and not all nations entertain the same legal processes that we do.

If we cannot legally execute a w...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

Yes, the constitution shuold be applied to everyone. Remember that it says that ALL people have undeniable rights, well I guess they just got denied.

Oh, and on another point, you still should not look into someone's hotmail account if you 'suspect', you should use hard evidence, otherwise youre...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

Where does the Constitution say that all people have undeniable rights? And besides, it is the Constitution of the United States of America, not of the World....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

I totally agree.

When are people going to realize that THERE IS NO EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY when you're using someone else's computer?

ESPECIALLY when you're at work? They don't provide computers for you to PLAY on there - you're supposed to be using them for WORK!

They NEVER HAVE and NEVER ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Yeah right (1 replies)

There is no expectation of privacy at work, Ok I buy that. BUT just because I work for someone DOES NOT imply they can use my password to crack systems. If my passwords are used by others to perform illegal acts, I want the person doing the cracking to go to jail, not me....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

They aren't illegal acts. If you're accessing personal Hotmail from work, then you should not expect any privacy laws to protect your Hotmail account. That's privacy laws, however. Obviously, if someone steals your internet banking password and commits fraud with it, expectation of privacy is irr...

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Hotmail?? 2002-08-28
Anonymous (1 replies)

If your employer allows reasonable personal use of the internet, and does not explicitly state that public webmail systems are out of bounds (A security policy - gasp!), then they have no grounds to snoop on anything that you do.
If they allow use of the system then that use is confidential, unless...

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Hotmail?? 2002-08-29
Anonymous

That's why if I'm going to do anything I don't want my employer to know or worry about, I forward it over an ssh connection to another box....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous

As a former investigator, I have to question what happened.

Basically, entering a foreign computer with our a warrant broke the law. That tainted the evidence, fruit of the posion tree. Therefore any warrant to read the info is invalid and the evidence should not have been allowed.

I am surp...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

Many of you rave about the way the FBI does business.
It would be totally different if they were infringing on your rights, to say, bust you for downloading mp3s.

Throw it in another direction yet. Mp3s that the FBI provided for you to download. This is happening today without it becoming a pub...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-03
Anonymous

Mp3s are not totally legal right....so when the Feds break down your door for posessing copyrighted music that you didn't pay for that is your ass. We all know the consequences of our actions so tough doo doo when we get busted.

So who would be the bad guy here...the one with the stolen...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

If Russia wants to have alot of fun, Invite the US consolate to a meeting. Request that the government turn in the FBI hackers. Arrest the Consolate for Aid and abetting a terriorst org, WHO PUBLICLY ADMITTED TO THE CRIME when they refuse.

Maybe, just maybe, the FBI would spend a little time l...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
psxc

Most people here seems to focus more on the act the Russians did than what the FBI did. Both are crimes, under each-other laws.
Now, I may be strething things a bit, but let's say this was an issue with the Chineese government and 2 US reporters. In China there're some things you're not allowed to ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

The Feds use Carnivore etc. The public rarely hears of it. so whats new?

What's with the author's vocab? has anyone noticed that he over used the word hacker, hacked, etc? I think reporters and such, should have acquire special permits to write about any news that's technology related. I'm sorry...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
XX---Thanatos---XX

sucks when the feds are hacking shouldnt try it where im at or they would have been fucked up for it ...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Louis Helmke (1 replies)

I have seen a lot of interesting arguments. Mostly in saying the FBI was wrong and should be prosecuted. Essentially I agree that Russia may have the right to indict. Doesn't mean they will ever get them. How many have been sheilded from our (America's) judicial system by other countries who fee...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

If the Russians indict, I think it will be a tit for tat situation.

As far as getting the FBI to stand trial, G.Bush Sr. already set the standard w/Noriaga. Send over the Russian swat comandos and kidnap the agents.... (thx George!)

But it is all a wash. At the present time the US has...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

I think the Feds should be charged...if it was any one of us we'd be charged and sent away. As for the Russians, they should have assisted the FBIs investigation, i.e., mutual cooperation. The Feds shouldn't be above the law....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

I agree with most of this, other than the fact that anyone should "expect" any level of privacy in a school or at work. I am a network administrator, and I don't put PC's on my employee's desks to check thier home email, when you are using MY property, designated for a certain purpose, and I find yo...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Joe Citizen (1 replies)

Man I'm sick and tired of hearing all the bitching from non-Americans about how we (Americans) think we are so great and perfect and how we'd better watch out cause the world is turning against us. Wa, wa, wa. Would you like some cheese with your whine?

Our justice system and our government is no...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-03
American

Thank Goodness for a reasonable person in all the fluff.
The criminals have the upperhand because they don't play by the rules. The Government has to many rules that are supposed to protect the innocent from prosecution and so on and so on we all understand this. Joe Citizen has said it...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-28
Anonymous

If you (or the sys admin) use a password sniffed by a system administrator to later go and read an employees hotmail, or any other email, with out a search warrant. You are violating the law, period. Go read 18 USC 1030 before you end up in jail....

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-08-30
Anonymous

Interesting article!...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-03
Kid Danger

I've never read more crap in all my life.

One person actually got it correct but more others missed it. The FBI didn't BREAK IN! They logged in. They sniffed data on their own equipment that they own.

The US cannot enforce laws outside their jurisdiction. The FBI didn't break into the comp...

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filesharing no longer illegal? 2002-09-03
Anonymous

The Washington federal court also held that the copying of the files from the Russian computer to the United States didn't constitute a "seizure" and therefore did not require a warrant, because, naturally, the files remained on the Russian computer, and therefore there was no "interference" with th...

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When Feds are the Crackers 2002-09-05
Anonymous

How many splinters does it take to prove a tree has been rendered? Why do we expect "our government", which long ago stopped representing the people, to do the right thing? Ever since the Warren Report, (READ IT!) I haven't had a single reason to believe our justice system or the people tasked wit...

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Same right for everyone, better for America? 2002-09-05
European

I'll quote some of you:

"They aren't American citizens; they don't enjoy the rights of Americans. If these guys were terrorists and the FBI had the opportunity to infiltrate their cells, but dropped the ball, everyone would be in an uproar. Who draws the line on how many rights non-American crimi...

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