The Subpoenas are Coming!

The Subpoenas are Coming!
Mark Rasch, 2003-09-29

Citing a provision of the Patriot Act, the FBI is sending letters to journalists telling them to secretly prepare to turn over their notes, e-mails and sources to the bureau. Should we throw out the First Amendment to nail a hacker?

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous (2 replies)

As usual, it isn't a war on terror or on drugs, it's a war on our constitutional rights and freedoms. The prosicutors job would be much easier if they didn't get slowed down by these pesky rights.
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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Anonymous

The very first hint that the Patriot act might have detrimental effects on our civil liberties was the fact that it was named the Patriot act. The obvious implication was that anyone who opposed it was unpatriotic. This president and his administration scare the hell out of me. ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-05
Tracer

What is this world coming to......

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous

Even Bush and his retarded cronies cannot trample upon the First Amendment and 42USC2000aa clarifies and protects that. I, like the author, invite Bush to "bring it on" and see who wins. The SCOTUS will be more than happy to slap even the President's wrists for being a bad boy....

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymouse

Very well articulated! I'm glad there is still someone left in America that believes in individual freedoms. Thank you for raising awareness that subpoenas do not require automatic compliance. We need to find a balance between security and privacy to avoid motivating further protect hacks....

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-09-29
Penguinisto (6 replies)

"The letters warn them to expect subpoenas for all documents relating to the hacker..."

Pfft. The FBI could've done the same damned thing before 9/11, just that they would've cited other laws instead... BFD.

You also forgot to mention that a judge, the reporters' own legal reps (the NYT has a ...

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-09-29
Anonymous

The subpoena doesn't bother me for the same reasons you've mentioned. The gag order, however, does.
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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-09-30
Whatever (1 replies)

I won't claim to know the ins and outs of US law, but it's difficult to quash a subpoena that you don't know about. Assuming that the journalists in question can't tell their own lawyers, they probably can't tell anyone else's lawyers either.
And as far as the FBI using other laws if they didn't us...

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-10-01
Penguinisto (1 replies)

"but it's difficult to quash a subpoena that you don't know about."

True, but you would certainly have to know about it before you turned over whatever it is the subpoena asked for, yes? That would give you the opportunity to fight it.

"Assuming that the journalists in question can't tell thei...

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-10-07
Terry Karney

If the recipient cannot discuss the supoena, who is going to draft the motion to quash?

More to the point, I will argue that FBI policy, and practice, in the past indicates against so broad an attempt to gather information from the press.

The nature of shield laws, the attitude of repo...

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the more bullhorns the better 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Yet another example surfaces, of how our Constitutionally protected rights are being systematically dismantled.

The Patriot Act -- which was opportunistically pushed through congress during the post 9-11 hysteria -- is one of the most civil-liberty threatening pieces of legislation ever pass...

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-09-30
GaleForce (1 replies)

Gee...what a great example of WHY all of our freedoms are eroding so rapidly. Go back to sleep....we'll wake you when they've got your pod ready.

pffft indeed.

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Err, when you get done running the bullhorn... 2003-10-01
Penguinisto

When you can't argue on the facts, always go for the ad-hominem, huh?

I mean, I could just as easily follow up your little flame attempt with cracks about tin-foil hats, black helicopters, mid-control rays, whatever... but that would accomplish nothing, and winning against your, err, 'argument' i...

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sometimes it takes a bull horn right next to the ear 2003-09-30
Anonymous (2 replies)

Proponents of "Patriot" often claim that the law always allowed such and such. Really, then why was the law changed? Then there's the claim that it will only be used to combat "terrorism". But a 9/29/03 front page NY Times article describes hundreds of non-terrorism uses to which the new law's alre...

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one word: "consolidation.' 2003-10-01
Penguinisto (1 replies)

"Really, then why was the law changed?"

To consolidate existing ones.

Even the ACLU can only scrape up one objection to the thing, and that's based on a misreading of the part they're screaming about.

Maybe you can do better? Please, point out the one portion of this big bad threat and show...

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one word: 'foolish' 2003-10-03
Former Jarhead (1 replies)

The U.S.A. Patriot act and Patriot Act II do a lot more than consolidate existing law. They remove many of the checks and balances that are currently in place. There are a plethora of instances that can be cited from the act that limit our freedoms and the following are just a couple. I will give...

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...oh? How so? 2003-10-03
Penguinisto (1 replies)

--------8<------------
Sec 212 Emergency Disclosures by ISP's.
ISP's may now voluntarily, though not required, disclose private communications of their customers to law enforcement agencies when the threat of injury is discovered. It also indemnifies ISP's for doing so (you can't sue them).
---...

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...oh? How so? 2003-10-03
Former Jarhead

First, let me say thanks for maintaining a level of dignity in this discussion. Usually you can't debate things like this without someone getting their underware totally in a knot.

Next, point by point:

Look at the first word in there... "voluntary." By the by, the ISP's information on you i...

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sometimes it takes a bull horn right next to the ear 2003-10-02
Anonymous

I don't think the entire Bush administration is to blame for these attacks on our civil liberties. Bush signs these bills with the advice of one person: Ashcroft (or should I say McCarthy)

Ashcroft is the biggest proponent of these anti-patriotic bills and continues to get away with it in the na...

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Oh, one addendum for the Induhviduals out there: 2003-10-01
Penguinisto

Ever notice that the most the FBI has done is to write a courtesy letter saying "expect a subpoena"? The rest is author hysteria and speculation.

IOW, unless the letter is in and of itself a subpoena or some sort of actual court order, the journo who recieves it is UNDER NO LEGAL OBLIGATION TO CO...

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The Subpoenas are Coming ! 2003-09-29
Anonymous (1 replies)

WTF is happening in the USA ?
Where is the "land of freedom" gone ?

One could be forgotten for thinking that the writer of this article was talking about a new branch of the Chinese intelligence, the famous FBI.

People, PLEASE DO SOMETHING before it is too late !!

A non-American getting mo...

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The Subpoenas are Coming ! 2003-09-30
A Patriot

Here's the difference between that little warmonger Napoleon and that egotistical, war-
mongering little twerp G.W. Bush.
NAPOLEON WAS INTELLIGENT....

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous

Nicely written...bravo...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous

Well written, hopefully you can get this some TV airplay.

Welkum to Amerika. ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
El C0chin0 <mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com> (4 replies)

A seemingly narrow-minded Bush supporter wrote:

"So if you're quite finished shrieking like Chicken Little on a meth jag, and trying to milk the Patriot Act hysteria for all it's worth... can we get back to some actual security-related tech commentary? Thx in advance."

Although the article isn...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Bush isn't hypnotizing the people. That is what the FBI (and other similar agencies) do over the phone, especially to people they consider for positions at the agency. So secure your phones and don't take any more unsolicited calls from people who block their caller ID.

Well, it was an interestin...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Anonymous (1 replies)

To: El C0chin0

The posting that you responded to does not mention the Bush administration or state that the writer is a Bush supporter. You have wrongly jumped to a conclusion that is not supported by the facts of the matter. That is unfortunate.

Such emotional, ideological rants as your...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-01
Anonymous (1 replies)

I to a point agree with you, name calling has very little positive impact. But who are you trying to kid with this peaceful resolution crap. The country is at WAR, and the Patriot Act is tightly tied to progressing that WAR....

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-04
Anonymous

You say:

"The country is at WAR,..."

Who are we at war with? Surely not our fellow Americans?

My point is that we should be civil to our fellow citizens. We should all have the wellfare of the country and each other at heart. We should not promote hatred of each other by demonizing our...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-01
Anonymous

lol its ok well said man. I just really dont like the idea of whats going on. People say oh, its ok its nothing big, the reporters should just do it. blah. I just can't help but wonder what IS next? like you said, wire tapping priests? i wouldnt doubt it. Its becoming more and more of a resemblence ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-01
Penguinisto

"A seemingly narrow-minded Bush supporter wrote:" (followed by a quote from me...)

Err, how exactly would you know who I voted for? The answer may surprise you, if you didn't have your own ideological blinders on so tightly. ;)

I've covered this territory already up at the top of this pile of ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous

Awesome! The "freedom of the press" is something that needs to be preserved and never taken for granted. Hey, all you reporters out there that received the nasty FBI letter - you and your families are in my prayers. ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-29
Anonymous

The dummies in Congreess sat nodding their heads "Yes" when Ashcroft said that he had the right to jail anyone who is a suppoter of terrorism and anyone who disagreed with him was in fact a supporter of terrorism. Think he didn't mean it?
According to the National Press photographers Assoc. magazin...

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-09-29
SCEPTIC (3 replies)

Not that I doubt the government frequently exceeds any bounds placed (whether legal, juridictional, or otherwise), but to have credibility, you need multiple witnesses attesting to facts without contradictions.

Also, a little physical evidence would help. Don't you have a scanner?

= = =

...

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Interesting questions....

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-09-30
El C0chin0 (2 replies)

If I didn't know better I'd say you've mannaged to talk yourself into a corner.

You must also remember, those who ask the qustion are suspicious and will be esclated in priority on the FBI list as those who support terrorism.

I'm curious though, Ashcroft's doctrine seems to profile what a terr...

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-10-02
Anonymous

" We don't dare question, but we want to. "

I think this is some typical USA thingy to cope with. Common culture in high-level management (even goverment) is that once the leaders gives an order/make statement, nobody questions it and follows his command without question.

I don't need to give ...

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-10-02
El C0chin0

Yes, I'm replying to myself.

Am I the only one that thinks the following is too werid?

The United States Congress wants to have an investigation into the CIA to determine who may have leaked sensitive information, but we can't investigate Enron because Dick (who's daddy btw was an SS officer i...

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WHY NO SCAN OF THE FBI LETTERS? 2003-10-01
Anonymous

I think most of our freedom is illusionary. People say that we have more freedoms than most countries. Well technically they are correct. But i would also agree that our freedoms are also slimming faster than any other country. Atleast others are used to the way we live. We have to adjust to less fr...

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Can Poulson talk about the subpenas? 2003-09-29
Anonymous (2 replies)

It is intresting that this article was not written by kevin himself. Is he not free to talk about this in his articles on Securityfocus?

I have heard rumors that SEcurityfocus or Kevin was paying Adrian for the exclusive scoop on Adrian's hacking exploits. Could this mean that the FBI is going af...

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Rights? 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Get out to local elections and vote the "evildoers" out of office! Start a grass roots effort. Get the seniors, young adults, all adults out to start housecleaning from the bottom up. Schoolboard, city council, etc.
That's what the Republicrats did, and now they own the voting machines!!!!...

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Can Poulson talk about the subpenas? 2003-10-03
Kevin Poulsen

Untrue. We don't pay sources (we barely pay our writers).
...

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Another reason to go after the grey hats? 2003-09-29
Anonymous

It occurs to me that if parts of the
government depends upon professional crackers
(undeniable) that they would rather have
vulnerabilities that they know about and are
not yet public stay out of the public, and
therefore not fixed.

It seems like the Adrian Lamo's and RFPs of
the world may ...

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Courageous Article 2003-09-30
Former Jarhead (1 replies)

Congratulations Mark Rasch, for having the spine, the courage, and the sense of duty for writing this article. Some here will surely poo-poo the dangers that this administration and specifically this justice department are posing to the average American. Without arguing the merits or lack there of...

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Courageous Article 2003-10-01
dave

I could not have said it better myself. The biggest threat to America right now is its own government. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Thats what it was all about right? Lying about sex doesn't look so bad now. ...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Anonymous

This is democracy?...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
somebody

Hey! You pay their salaries, they have huge budgets from your taxes and after all YOU mast do THEIR job??? And if you don't want to do it - does it mean that you support terrorists and hackers? If you don't agree - does it mean that you support enemies?
It was in another time and in another countr...

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Funny Article 2003-09-30
Anonymous

I got quite a chuckle from the article. Too bad it was an ironic chuckle. Truth is, most (though admittedly not all) of the various media pundits in the US practically wet themselves in their frenzy to be unthinking mouth pieces for the implememtation of a police state here in the "Homeland." No pie...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Robert S. Finnegan, Editor, Southeast Asia News

Despite the well researched and written article, and the unquestioned credentials of the author I am compelled to add a footnote:

There is in place at this time in most U.S. states a SHIELD LAW that protects journalists from revealing thier sources.

The First Amendment of the Constitution of...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Robert S. Finnegan, Editor, Southeast Asia News

Bill of Rights don't protect Sheep 2003-09-30
American Patriot (1 replies)

The Bill of Rights were designed to protect the rights of the Citizens of the Serveral States, not sheep, from federal usurpation. But these words on paper won't do anything by themselves, it takes real Americans with the Courge to enforce those rights. To bad that's an endangered species. Baaaaaa...

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Bill of Rights don't protect Sheep 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Neither will your words ...

What have you done to fight the machine lately?...

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Just another step.... 2003-09-30
Brian

Getting closer and closer to the prison world that has been planned for so long. The writing is on the wall and nobody seems to notice......oh well, should be a good show and we all have front row seats. If you want to keep up on world events go to either one of these websites. http://www.whatreally...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-09-30
Anonymous

Most disturbing is the intimidation factor.
Since most mainstream reporters are in the corporate bag already, there will be even less incentive to document America's turn to Neo-Nazism.
Those using 9/11 to subvert the republic know now is the time to strike because vigilance is at its weakest....

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To those who would give up liberty for safety: You deserve neither. 2003-09-30
Benjamin Franklin (1 replies)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin...

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To those who would give up liberty for safety: You deserve neither. 2003-10-01
Former Jarhead (1 replies)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin

"Our defense is in the spirit which prized liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism at yo...

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To those who would give up liberty for safety: You deserve neither. 2003-10-01
El C0chin0

My only comment to all this is that the next time you go to the polls to VOTE, don't lean so far to the RIGHT!...

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Subpoena Novak 2003-09-30
Anonymous

It will be interesting to see if the DOJ would ever subpeona Robert Novak regarding the CIA agent revelation. And I wonder if Novak has gotten one of those do-not-destroy notes letters.
Cynics know the answer....

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The Subpoenas are Coming! Patrioat Act II, Extinction of Fourth Estate 2003-10-01
Joseph F.P. Harty

Mark Rasch,
In the state of the country this is jouralsists watershed confrontation. It could be the journalists re-emergence as a force to be reconed with. There is no protection, the right controls the attorney general, the court and both houses! In the light of all to see the secre...

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"FREE MARK" bumper stickers on sale now!! 2003-10-02
Anonymous

Interesting article Mark, should we start printing our ?FREE MARK? bumper stickers yet?...

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The Subpoenas are Coming! 2003-10-03
Anonymous

Yet another huge Constitutional reason to get rid of the Patriot Act as a whole. The crapiest piece of legislation our Congress ever created!...

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Makes me very happy I'm not an American! 2003-10-06
Anonymous

I applaud Mark Rasch's effort in taking a stand against this sort of crap..

To be honest in the last 5-6 yrs i've watched damn near everything from the US turn from crap to outright shit. I think it's about time americans stand up aginst the BS. Not to mention stop trying to force such on other...

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