Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries

Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries
Mark Rasch, 2006-11-20

Mark Rasch looks at the license agreement for Windows Vista and how its product activation component, which can disable operation of the computer, may be like walking on thin ice.

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
FatHed (4 replies)

I may be naive here and IANAL, but hasn't this always been the case with licensing software. Since you never actually own the software, anything you do to upset the licensee could potentially make them revoke your license making any use of their software after that point illegal. Meaning, if you had...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
perlhax (1 replies)

Sure it hasn't changed the fact that it would be illegal, the issue here is they can remotely disable the product, thus not allowing for normal illegal issues to get solved in the proper place, the judiciary. They are attempting to be the enforcer of the EULA, which they really dont have jurisdicti...

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous

But they DO have the authority. You grant it to them by agreeing to the EULA....

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Mark D. Rasch

Believe it or not, I had to look up IANAL.. but only to say IAAL! In the "old" days, software was developed pursuant to a contract which spelled out the rights and liabilities of the parties, specifications, performance and capabilities of the software, ownership, and payment. These agreements wer...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Steve (1 replies)

So many people copy software without paying. I am told by friends traveling abroad, they are constantly seeing copied materials (software, movies,etc.) for a few dollars on unauthorized media.
It is such a shame that those of use who pay for software are disrupted by security measure required to mi...

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
macdo

But of course if people (those horrid foreigners!) didn't/hadn't copied Windows, and Office, then MS would probably not be as rich as it is...

Not to metion the fact that most people in the world can't afford to pay for the software, while the use of this software is seen to be a necessary and vi...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous (1 replies)

I won't argue about the wording of the new Vista licensing, or even the current shipping products. The only point I would raise is that similar wording is in most of the currently available retailed MS products and in the download EULAs from online products.
There are numerous articles online that...

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Mark D. Rasch

Good comments. Just two things, I dont think that the return policy for software is as liberal here in the US. Second, though I may be mistaken, I think that the WGA software is integral to Vista, and not optional....

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Johan

What about Microsoft claiming they own the little penguin ?...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
All the same (3 replies)

Why don't you state earlier and with more emphasis that the issues you discuss are industry issues and not just Microsoft ones. Just about everything you claim is the same for many other software providers. You make this seem as a unique issue for Microsoft. Most companies have similarly restrictive...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous

Ironic that the pirating that M$ originally suffered from helped make it the preferred OS, isn't it? Because everyone had it!

And yes M$ isn't the only one involved. I still remember being forced to buy a new copy of Symantec Anti-Virus because they refused to sell me a renewal subscription for...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Macdo

Let's see, because it's a lot harder to replace your OS than it is to replace, say, your AV software? Or because in the consumer market place, there aren't that many applications that expressly reserve the right to phone home every now and then, in a 'Just Checking...' frame of mind? Or could it be ...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-06-18
Anonymous

You're a fool. Great points were made about Microsoft's activation schemes. Sometimes a little history is necessary for comparison.

For the most part the article was bang on....

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous

I am glad I do not have to agree to Microsoft's EULA, and decide not to use their crappy OS.

http://www/linux.org

...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
AlphaGeek (4 replies)

What we need to do is put this all in perspective.

In the '80s and '90s Microsoft was very lax in enforcing its licensing "rights" and let people do whatever they wished (or copuld get away with) because the apparent motive was to spread MS software everywhere. Around the 2000 time frame, Micros...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous

microsoft is glutton for punishment. they first throttle every other company in this world, and dont let any other OS to compete.

there ought to be different pricing points for different people. there are people who want the the OS for less, but no microsoft decides to kill other operating syste...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous

I don't agree with AlphaGeek at all here - Microsoft in the 80's and 90's was a different company to today.

Microsoft had limited capabilities to restrict distribution of its software - All it had were product activation keys (windows 95 or 98 onwards?) and telephone-based unlocking.

The Int...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-23
Anonymous

Microsoft did not "begin" to get greedy, they always have been greedy! It has been part of their plan from the beginning to lock everyone in on their platform, and then close the doors and tighten the screws. Why do you suppose they "gave" free computers to schools for our children to "learn" on, ...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-12-08
Anonymous

You are spot on.

Look in software, not just MS, if it is useful and you want everyone to use it, you have to put up with a fair amount of piracy. This is fact of life. As someone in this thread has commented, MS has gotten to this position is largely the result of piracy.

I do not submit to th...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous

"This is particularly true if Vista is being used for a system providing medical treatment, controlling a power plant, or other such critical infrastructure."

If that alone is not bad enough, now the Vista computer controlling the power plant must have Internet connectivity to phone home?...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-21
Anonymous (2 replies)

Years ago, when Vista (or whatever its code name was at the time) was announced, I decided that by the time Vista came to market, I would be running Linux on all of my machines connected to the internet (4). I will run XP on one machine (for some specialized programs). I also have converted my paren...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous (1 replies)

It's easy: Windows belongs in the confines of a Virtual Machine as-in VMware, Virtual PC or on a Mac in Parallels. In that virtual "hardware" you have all the control you need....

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous

Ummm, No.....

The type of control I was referring to is the control to be able to use the OS without having to worry about having to activate/reactivate every time hardware changes or the OS decides to hiccup.

VMware (which I do use) does not solve this problem. The OS still has to be activat...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-23
Anonymous

I know the feeling. They hit my limit with the introduction of WGA. That made me do away with my legal version of XP and fall back to my also legal version of Windows 2000, which I now only boot to use Photoshop. For everything else it is Linux. And in time Photoshop will be replaced too, to make th...

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Mac Leopard or Linux he he he 2006-11-21
Anonymous

If MSFT wants to play hard ball with the EULA it is just another case for the OS options that are out there. I have had experience with MSFT and their Validation techniques. Try getting 50+ numbers off some one who can barely speak english !!!!! I am in noway biased but when you have to repeat...

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Why none of this matters 2006-11-21
Jake (7 replies)

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that, when you purchase a computer, purchase Vista, or do anything related, you are choosing to agree to the terms of EULA. If you don?t like the agreement, you can choose not to agree to it and not use Vista. It?s the same principal of the right to airport...

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Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-22
Anonymous

You are correct in context - it's not about the OS. It's about the applications you need. Which means it's about the OS when the application you need is only available on the OS you do not want to use. Any questions as to why MS wants to control the developers as well?...

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Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-22
Mark D. Rasch (1 replies)

The problem is not the ordinary terms of the EULA -- you know, that you agree to jurisdiction in Washington State, or that there are no warranties, or even a limitation on damages. The problem here is that MS has given itself the right to determine unilaterally and unequivically whether you have br...

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Re: Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-28
Anonymous (2 replies)

Hi Mark,

Twice you misspelled "unequivocally" as "unequivically"; once in the original article and again in this reply. For those that don't know, "equivocal" means to be ambiguous or to have more than one interpretation as opposed to "univocal" which has only one interpretation. "Unequivocal" to...

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fixed 2006-12-04
editor

The one spelling mistake of "unequivocally" within the article is my fault. Thanks for pointing it out; it has been fixed in the article.

Regards,
editor...

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Re: Re: Re: Why none of this matters 2006-12-30
Anonymous

unequivocal is a valid word - as you say its the opposite of ambiguous but how else are you going to say it without using un-something?...

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Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-22
Spike

What an absurd comment. Plenty of users are locked into to using Microsoft products. Now saying that they just shouldn?t use Vista is fine but what about when the end of service life for XP comes around and there are no more patches for it? Companies will be forced to go to whatever is in use by Mic...

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Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-22
Andy

None of this matters beacause Vista WILL be cracked same as everything before it....

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Re: Why none of this matters 2006-11-22
Steve Bradley

That really isn't the case. You don't really have a choice in operating systems because developers develop their applications to the lowest common denominator, Windows. So, if you want to run normal business applications or the latest games you will be forced into buying Windows.

Before anyon...

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Re: Wrong 2006-11-27
Anonymous

It is not at all a plain or simple fact that somebody who purchases Vista is agreeing to the terms of the EULA. It is perfectly conceivable that somebody rejects those terms and uses the software anyway. It would be non-trivial for Microsoft to prove that a user agreed to the terms of the EULA. Ther...

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Why none of this matters (airplane boarding analogy) 2007-12-01
**nux Lover

False analogy. US Homeland Security is now demanding name lists of passengers overflying say between Greenland and Mexico thus creating more jobs in "less government" US. And, don't tell me there are no flights between Greenland and Mexico. BTW all my MS software has been bought and paid for. MS ...

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So why would anybody agree to the Vista EULA? 2006-11-21
Anonymous

Because they don't really have a choice....

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EULA ? SPAM ? COMMUNISM ? DEMOCRACY ? 2006-11-21
budman (1 replies)

This issue is similar to the battle against spam, which we seem to be loosing. If no-one ever purchased anything from spammers, it would become unprofitable and die off. If no-one bought Vista, I have no doubt M$ would change their EULA to be a little more "user friendly."

This issue is also si...

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Re: EULA ? SPAM ? COMMUNISM ? DEMOCRACY ? 2007-12-20
Jim H.

Budman,

It is - unfortunately - not so simple.

I would suggest that you go to your nearest Walmart, K-Mart, Sears, Best-Buy, etc. and try to buy a non-Windows PC. And by this I mean a regular, plain-vanilla PC. (as opposed to Apple's offerings - which I don't object to - but we're talking abo...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Richard (2 replies)

I bought XP home and I registered it and had no problems. It seems the big fuss is that people can"t get it free, that is it plain and simple....

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-12-30
Anonymous

No, its about Microsoft being able to reach out across the internet and disable your OS, possibly based on a faulty test or just on the fact that you havent actively proven to them that youre legit.

They can enforce the terms of the agreement when its not their place to do so, and its near-imposs...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-01-20
Anonymous

So you were lucky this time, so far.
How do you think you'll feel if WGA suddenly decides your license isn't legitimate? Or if you get a notice time after time that you must re-activate because of a significient hardware change, when you haven't changed ANYTHING?
How do you think users that this h...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous (1 replies)

5 pages of tripe. As soon as it became clear on page 3 regarding the causality of MS and it's licencing model regarding legitimate users; the whole story goes to mush. SC, get a reporter who can relay the facts instead of spewing sensationialist diatribe....

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Thanks for stopping by, Mr. Ballmer... 2006-11-27
Anonymous

Oh, and by the way, the only tripe being discussed here is sold by your convicted monopolist company.

/Kubuntu rocks!...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Todd Knarr

Of course, the interesting question is what happens if I buy a retail copy of Vista at a retail outlet in a state where the UCITA doesn't apply. If I do that, then absent any other explicit agreement at the time of sale the default contract of sale in the Uniform Commercial Code applies, not Microso...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous

The first PC computer virus "Brain" was a good example of the self-help concept. A short description of brain and its motives could be checked at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(c)Brain...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Jeffrey Harris

While I personally think that the activation requirements are an onerous burden on people who "purchase" Microsoft software, the basic fact is that product activation in Vista is really no different than product activation in Windows XP. XP already "phones home" when it detects significant hardware...

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Where was Rasch four years ago, and what degree in Law does he have? 2006-11-22
Gordon Fecyk (3 replies)

First he declares Windows Genuine Advantage is 'spyware' solely based on his non-legal opinion of its EULA, then he declares Windows Vista violates this legal precident and that legal precident, again in his non-legal opinion.

Rasch, if you're not going to provide any technical evidence of your c...

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Re: Where was Rasch four years ago, and what degree in Law does he have? 2006-11-22
Mark D. Rasch (1 replies)

A few responses.. briefly. I didnt claim that Vista is spyware here (though it probably meets the legal definitions of spyware in many states.) I pointed out that spyware also has EULAs, so its not enough to say "well, you agreed to it in the EULA..." Look at FTC v. Odysseus Software on www.ftc.go...

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Does Symantec practice 'self-help' in your 24-year legal opinion? 2006-11-22
Gordon Fecyk (2 replies)

> Imagine a car which, when a monthly payment is not made (or when the "owner" - the leasing company believes that one has not been paid) shuts itself off, leaving you stranded on the side of the highway until you call the company with a credit card number...

So in your 24 year legal opinion, say...

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off-topic 2006-11-24
moderator (1 replies)

This article has nothing to do with Norton Antivirus, Symantec, or the expiry of subscription-based software (which Windows is not!).

Please stay on topic or your comments will not be approved.

We also don't approve comments that are personal attacks, which yours are not yet but are sure leani...

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Re: off-topic 2007-12-20
Anonymous

Moderator,

I would beg you to have a care here - the specific thrust of the article in question is "self-help" - and how Vista's EULA runs roughshod over this concept.

It is my own considered opinion that this kind of "DRM" "Activation" or whatever is absolutely germaine to the thread.

If o...

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Re: Does Symantec practice 'self-help' in your 24-year legal opinion? 2006-11-27
Mark D. Rasch

Indeed, that is the point of the article. While you can lease a car, the car doesnt have the power to determine if you have breached the lease, and then disable itself. The concept of "self help" appears to be inherent in digital intellectual property - and represents a new phenomenon, that courts...

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Re: Where was Rasch four years ago? I think he was still at the DOJ... 2006-11-22
ratledge

Anyone that is technically astute in the area malware and / or intrusion detection will agree with Mark's implication that WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage) is in fact nothing more than a vendor designed "root kit". No one I know that is "in the business" would allow it to be installed on their comput...

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Re: Where was Rasch four years ago, and what degree in Law does he have? 2006-11-22
Grolan

LOL, well Gordon, I guess Mark shut you up, eh? Heh, I love it when smart@sses get slapped down...

BTW, good article Mark. MS's licensing terms have been hostile to their customers forever. I still marvel that people keep buying it anyway. And, as Novell have relearned (for what, the 2nd, 3rd...

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Your own product does this! 2006-11-22
Gordon Fecyk

Norton Antivirus 2004 and later 'disables operation' of itself if it thinks the user violated its end user license agreement.

http://antiwindowscatalog.com/?mode=rant&id=39...

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Vista's EULA wrong direction 2006-11-22
withheld

IMHO...

Please forgive my over simplification, and spelling. Microsoft is spending lots of money in the development and maintenance of software to protect their interests. I am all about protecting my interests so I understand this much. The rest is a lot of effort in the wrong direction.

I...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous

The point isn't whether or not it is legal, it is about whether or not it is ethical. It is definitely not ethical for things to be done this way, and it may not even be legal in certain instances (as noted in the article, but there are others as well)....

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-22
Anonymous (1 replies)

Now, pardon me for a stupid question, but what what happens to end users who do not have an internet connection? Is it a prerequisite. This should be addressed....

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-24
Bob from Denver (1 replies)

Yes, I've been wondering the same thing. I've been contemplating getting an Intel Mac and running my must-have legacy Windows applications in a virtual instance of Windows running under something like Parallels, with no access to the Internet. But if Windows absolutely insists in "phoning home" to...

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-26
Anonymous

pretty simple: stay with XPee.... Any Windoze version should be run in a virtual machine w/o access to anything to make sure it doesn't get infected by viruses or trojans. It won't need any updates either and if you break it just copy the virtual machine backup-files back into the directory....

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-23
Anonymous

So .... if I buy Vista and happen to have no internet access, I have just deposited the cost of one Vista licence into MS's bank account and have no OS??...

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What No-one Else Has Noticed 2006-11-24
Anonymous (2 replies)

Not so long ago, having an internet connection wsa novel, a rarity. Maybe a potential user wants to use the office and (say) photoshop, and, so as to avoid viruses, phishing, etcetera, or even to create a distraction-free working environment, wishes to stay offline.

What does this user get? At ...

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Re: What No-one Else Has Noticed 2006-11-27
Anonymous (1 replies)

What is frankly ridiculous is that you forget that
1) It is always possible to activate by phone
2) Someone without internet now, for the excuses you mentioned, is living 15 years behind technology. Get a hardware firewall and stop downloading dodgy content. Period....

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Re: Re: What No-one Else Has Noticed 2007-01-19
Anonymous

For some types of work a PC cannot be allowed to connect to the Internet for security and/or legal reasons....

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Re: What No-one Else Has Noticed 2007-01-20
Anonymous

Ever heard of Linux?
Also, Win98 or 2000 will run forever without an internet connection, probably better since they won't be getting Microsoft's "patches" and "updates" (all of which I consider spyware, malware, and rootkits)....

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Just a taste of what's to come 2006-11-24
BaysideBas

In the cases mentioned, the self-help provisions were used when there was a dispute regarding "future" payments on the "license." With a mass commerce transaction there is no expectation of future payments, that is all accomplished at the outset. Or is it? As I see it, this product activation/dro...

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if Vista is being used... 2006-11-25
Anonymous

"...if Vista is being used for a system providing medical treatment, controlling a power plant, or other such critical infrastructure."

Please, don't scare us like that!...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-25
Gabe (1 replies)

I was wondering, how log it will be until some bad guys will figure a way to shutdown entire networks using this disabling "feature"?

Like a form of terrorist attack for example.......

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-12-07
Anonymous

Once most of the world is using Vista the risk is immense. It's foreseeable that a hacker, a disgruntled MS employee, or a p'd off country could find a way not to shut off an entire network but to shut off the entire world. The risk of allowing such a system to be in place is insane....

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Haven't seen those "happy feet" marching off yet for 4 years 2006-11-26
Gordon fecyk (2 replies)

"...you can decide to find software with a little penguin on it."

Folks were crying "Fowl," especially the ones who couldn't spell, about Product Activation four years ago. Linux advocates claimed it would finally drive irate users to Linux.

Here it is, four years later, and we haven't seen t...

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Re: Haven't seen those "happy feet" marching off yet for 4 years 2006-12-12
Anonymous (1 replies)

Look someplace besides under your own rug, where you have swept all the facts. LINUX DOES NOT USE "PRODUCT ACTIVATION".
WHAT FUNNY BOOK ARE YOU READING?...

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Re: Re: Haven't seen those "happy feet" marching off yet for 4 years 2007-01-07
bobby (1 replies)

any particular vendor may use activation (tivo, anyone?), but Linux doesn't.. If you wish to ascertain that for yourself, d/l all the sources (you will likely need/want GNU tools, xorg pkgs etc..), compile & run them yourself. Do you think it will phone home to you? ;-)...

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Re: Re: Re: Haven't seen those "happy feet" marching off yet for 4 years 2007-02-22
Anonymous

You people misread his Gordon's post, he meant that windows using product activation would make people switch to linux, he did not say that linux uses product activation anywhere....

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Re: Haven't seen those "happy feet" marching off yet for 4 years 2006-12-30
Anonymous

Linux doesnt require activation; one version of one distribution does - only a problem if you love Xandros 4 but cant stand activation otherwise you can look elsewhere for some Linux-y goodness...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-27
Michael

This is a great article and I really wish it were more widely distributed. The problem I see is that users have become complacent about even reading the EULA. Most people just rip the box open, stick in the disk and click "I agree" without even makeing an attempt to read the license.

Until ther...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-27
Anonymous

First, let me admit that own a nice chunk of M$ stock. That being said, I have already concluded that 1) I will not be upgrading any of my home/private consulting machines to Vista, I will stick with XP, and 2) I am evaluating eac PC and laptop at home, its purpose, and plan to start migrating to LI...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-11-29
Matt Rendell

What if you dont have an internet connection?? I want to run Vista on a 64bit PC for video editing and such and have NO intention of putting this obx on the net.

How do they propose that I activate this version of Vista??

Once again Microscum proving that they really have no idea!!

No wonde...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2006-12-05
Anonymous (1 replies)

An admirable amount of research, thank you...

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Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-01-05
Anonymous (1 replies)

this site also offers some extra insight into the issue as well see http://www.pcprofile.com/Hasta_La_Vista.pdf ...

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Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-01-10
ScottyDog (1 replies)

I was warning people what MS was up to years ago when they started this invasion of Privacy. Now that they are doing exactly what I predicted they would do, people are finally outraged by illegal search and seizure. They do not even ring the doorbell before searching you hard drive night and day the...

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Re: Re: Re: Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-02-19
Anonymous

This is just the start...ever hear of Trusted Platform Computing? Just who is in need of the trust?...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-02-11
Seamus

I don't know how US law deals with unfair contract terms - presumably the common law treatment is similar to English law ie that in cases of doubtful meaning the interpretation will not generally lean to the favour of the party that drew up the contract. In English and EU statute law there are furth...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-02-17
Anonymous

"Information" is in effect the commodity being dealt with in the majority of computer related activity, which covers software 'sales' in general.

Since in a free society most information is considered freely exchangable, whether or not a fee is charged for this exchange is what the EULA should b...

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Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries 2007-03-25
Mystified

I can understand that Microsoft doesn't want you using their OS on two computers with one license.
I can't understand what their criteria are for determining when you need to reactivate your license.
I added a second video card to enable ATI's CrossFire platform. I immediately got a popup message ...

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