Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker

Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker
David Banisar, 2001-12-17

Safety standards and civil liability made automobiles safe. It can work for software too.

Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-17
Sean, bremerton Wa (4 replies)

I agree, lets sue the makers of Sendmail out of existence for making such an insecure product! Then we can move on to sue Sun for sadmin & all their other buffer overflows. How about suing the makers of Openssh? That?s a security product, it should be secure! How many issues has it had just this yea...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-17
Brock

The resonsiblity for buggy software lies in the motive for release. If all testing has been done in good faith, and all known bugs patched or at least made note of in a eratta file, then one could say due diligence was applied. Your examples of Sun, SSH and Sendmail are all true, but unrelated to th...

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RE: Sean, bremerton Wa : Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-24
Anonymous (1 replies)

Sean I agree with your statement but I do have a problem with vendors releasing software with known holes. Shouldn't they be held accountable for this at least?...

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RE: Sean, bremerton Wa : Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2002-01-03
Anonymous

Yes, of course. IN THE MARKETPLACE....

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Re: Sean 2002-01-06
guest@netpixies.net

The scenario you paint for us would not happen, for reasons
more related to law than software.

1) The bugs you mention in sendmail and Sun sadmind were
years ago, and time to file suit has run out. In addition,
Solaris has had stack protection since version 2.6, and
sendmail is open source. ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2002-01-12
An old codger that used to be proud of his profession.

Sean, your argument is vacuous. You admit that there are so many bugs and security windows that lawyers would get rich and the software industry would be destroyed if we start holding software companies responsible for their bugs. You further declare that there are so many bugs that malpractice in...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-17
System High

Here here!
...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-17
Jesse (1 replies)

This would perhaps destroy the free software movement, write code - accept financial liability for it. Of course one could say that releasing source code is a first step towards being responsible for securing it - but you really are asking people to install their own seatbelts (to use your analogy)...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous

Why should this destroy free software?
I remember something like " Use it at your own risk ", and the phrases like "it aims toward security". They did never state that their software was infallible.
On what base do we sue someone who gives me something for free along with warnings that it may not ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-17
philw (1 replies)

I'm sure there are companies out there who are totally oblivious to a security hole in their software when they put it on the shelf.

I don't really agree that legal action should be pursued against such companies. If that were the case the number of companies releasing software would dramaticall...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
DavidM

I disagree. I don't believe that the threat of legal action drives companies out of business. Successful prosecution of actual events might, but I think that the possibility of legal action may just result in more software companies that you could trust!
...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous (1 replies)

Using the car analogy for the model:

kit car: you get the pieces, you put it together, you are resposible for not only the seatbelt, but the seats as well, and how many of each you want. you are the manufacturer.

manufacured car: you buy it off the lot, they tell you how much it costs, and w...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-20
Anonymous

It's been almost nailed on the head in a couple of the responses, but something important is missing.

There is legal protection available to the consumer with just about every product. If your toaster has a faulty cord and burns your house down you can sue the manufacturer.

If your software ha...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Robert A. Matern (3 replies)

For many years, software has evaded the kind of certification that other engineered systems must routinely meet. If the term software engineering is ever to be anything more than a joke, the whole industry must step up to the plate and do what's needed.

One of the jobs I've done in the recent ...

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Engineering Type of Certification for Software 2001-12-18
nelson (1 replies)

In the previous thread a gentlemen brought up the point of "certs" for software. I presume he meant things like ISO-9000. Good idea, however it was my understanding that these certifications can take years to get. If you are manufacturing wigets this would be acceptable, but if you doing software ...

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Engineering Type of Certification for Software 2001-12-19
Robert A. Matern

There are many types of software certification, ISO-9000 is only one. See www.csa-usa.com for just one of several companies that do this kind of work (one of the smaller companies - I used to work for this one). Notice, too, that planning for safety during the design process is a big part of the o...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
DavidM

Well said, and I fully agree. This would definitely be the best direction to head in.

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Anonymous

I couldn't have said it better!! Its time for the manufacturers to step up to the plate, and take some responsibility and produce solid products. You dont see nearly as many, though they are out there, exploits in the Open Source OS's as you see in Big Name Commercial Products. I say that is becua...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Brad Freeman

Simple solution.

If the car (or software in this case) is a lemon,
then don't buy it!

Hitting them in their wallets gets their attention quicker.

Or, get off your lazy butt and write some awesome, solid, and secure software to put them out of business.

Common sense rules....

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
kbrown@nospam.com (2 replies)

Really, this is just a bad analogy, and your argument fails because you're trying to be clever instead of smart. Automobiles and software? Do you really want the software/technology industry to be taxed and regulated the way the automobile industry has been? People don't get 3rd degree burns over 90...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Robert A. Matern

People are occasionally injured or even killed by defective software. It's happened several times in the medical industry with x-ray machines and other software-controlled mechanized diagnostic tools. And at least one prescription assistant software recommended seriously wrong medicines. I will l...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
David

Bit of a critic, eh? Slamming his writing style when you can't even spell? I don't read the MS bashing you seem to see, and I think you have missed the point of the message. If the standard gets raised for the industry, then likely everyone will win (over time) compared to the direction things ha...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
theX (2 replies)

Your analogies are ridiculous. Safety measures for cars are required by law because without them, people die. One might argue that hacks might ruin lives, but I have yet to hear of one taking a life. Here is more realistic comparison:

Some autos have anti-theft systems, but they are not required...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Robert A. Matern

As I've already noted in another response, software controlling mechanical devices have killed quite a few times already. Software recommending improper actions has also done quite a bit of injury. And that's ignoring financial losses. Why shouldn't the option of certified software be available? ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Anonymous

I totally disagree here. I think the article makes a very valid point. Some software companies, Mirosomthingoranother, push for release dates over good code. They KNOWINGLY release flawed software. I dont think anyone is in favor of sueing a Software manufacturer over a few minor glitches that n...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous (1 replies)

I dont believe that you should be able to sue a company for a security flaw. All programs have bugs. One bug is all a good hacker needs to be able to compramise a system. You cannot hold the programmer responsible for a bug he does not know exists. Thats like the ford explorer tire problem. Do you r...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Bill reilly

You say "sue the bastards if they put out software they know is buggy." But at the moment, under most jurisdictions, software manufacturers can hide behind licensing agreements, and as the author pointed out, UCITA will only make it worse.

Somewhere along the line someone is going to have to ass...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous

Show me one application that does not contain a flaw of some kind, entering the wrong type of data to a simple prompt box or not returning the correct number of records from a database, to the all to familliar GPFs. Programming involves sometimes up to million lines of code. One cannot test for all...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous (1 replies)

Dave and anybody that agrees with him are not thinking this through any longer than their nose. Obviously you guys are not programmers, and maybe just sue happy people that I'm not going to tell you wich group I classify them him.

First of all, to be able to sue in this manner would kill the inte...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-20
Anonymous

I am a programmer and software provides my living. But I disagree with your statements and your attitude. My company produces quality software that we put through rigorous testing to ensure it meets standards. We charge more for a single package than I make in a year. We also guarentee that it will ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-18
Anonymous

I guess I see how important that worderful legal phrase "as is" is included in software :-)

Also.... since the idea of mixing cars and computers is the topic.... Imagine if everytime you got a bluescreen of death you would get hit in the face with an airbag... :-)...

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Save the Net, Sue a columnist 2001-12-19
Anonymous (1 replies)

So, if we are to sue vendors for bad software, does that mean that we can sue *YOU* for bad articles?

Aside from the horribly misplaced analogy of cars:software, your article contains both spelling and grammar errors, yet you published it anyway. Do I get to haul you into court now?

Are you a...

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Save the Net, Sue a columnist 2001-12-20
Anonymous (1 replies)

You missed the point totally. If you write a code you certainly use it. I hope you are sattisfied with every crap you write.
P....

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Save the Net, Sue a columnist 2001-12-31
Annoyed Reader

No, I think you missed the point of the reply.

This article IS pushing on Microsoft quite a bit. While I have read about insurance companies charging higher premiums for using IIS vs. Apache the author points out quite a few Microsoft flaws but leaves out other companies that are just a guilty...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
I Speak from Experience

Mr. Banisar, I agree with you.

And I have to wonder if some of the other posts were made by pr reps for some large companies.

I've been shocked that software developers have not been held legally accountable for their products. Just because they have a "click-through" license doesn't mean it ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Anonymous

I think software should have limited liability (not no liability). With the exception of life-critical systems like medical equipments and air traffic control, software should have liability proportional to its price, e.g. price*200%. The liability should be limited to what the software is advertise...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
_rAt_

Well kids still can destroy your car by using sugar en putting it into your cars fueltank.

But to get into the legal stuff. I'm sure this could work in the USA, but does/might not work in other countries.
And think you will have quite a difficult case sinds you habe to prove they didnt do eno...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Anonymous

The analogy is very good and intuitive (Cars, Computers), however it is quite flawed. For one thing, when there are computer security breaches no one dies. I've never heard of a case (I could be wrong) of people dying over a computer security issue. A lot of business lose money and are incoveinenced...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Rob John (1 replies)

I might buy your idea, but the analogy of a car and computers is flawed. Cars are special (specific) purpose machines, whereas a computer is a general purpose. When it comes to computers, there is no one size fits all, where standards can be applied universally or mandated by federal government in...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-21
Anonymous

The analogy comparing cars to security issues to cars is unsound. Hackers try to exploit the software to break into a system. I’ve never seen carhackers drive around and look for a pinto to rear end to see how it burns...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-19
Watsonian

grand idea - count me in - how can i help..?...

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Legal Clarifications... 2001-12-19
BillReilly

This debate needs some clarifications, because I think most people basically agree on the same thing, but that the legal classifications are confusing people.

I'm pretty sure Dave didn't say that all coders should be liable for software bugs. He was complaining that developers can use licensing ...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-20
Anonymous

I think its due time that software companies take responsibility for their products just like everyone else.

Most software warranties claim basically that they are not warrantied for any purpose. Then why sell them? Of course people are using them for particular purposes! And of course the sof...

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Sue Tim Burners Lee 2001-12-21
Anonymous

Dear Sir / Madman,

Last year I upgraded from Boyfriend 5.0 to Husband 1.0 and noticed that the new program began making unexpected changes to the accounting modules, limiting access to flower and jewelry applications that had operated flawlessly under Boyfriend 5.0.

In addition, Husband 1.0 un...

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OS and App tools NOT ready for Prime time= lawsuit city! 2001-12-21
we are years away from having tools that coders can use safely (ex: SELinux and CycloneC)! (1 replies)

Programmers and developers don't have proper tools TODAY to even begin to write secure applications. If this lawsuit situation started... then maybe these tools would be devloped faster!

So, what is a mother to do?

We (programmers, developers, users, etc), are all walking the same dangerou...

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Re: OS and App tools NOT ready for Prime time= lawsuit city! 2002-01-06
Anonymous

No, not at all. All products are imperfect, and the courts
realize that. If you coded something which had a bug that
didn't show up until later, it wouldn't matter unless it
were so huge or obvious that nobody could see how you
overlooked it. Producing an imperfect product is not the
same as...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-29
Anonymous (1 replies)

This new fiasco still XP has not put a true blemish on Bill gates company. We need to support the new Lindows and Linux to put fear in this mans heart. Peace and good luck out their....

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-31
Anonymous

Yeah, another "Linux Rulz" response...

Yet another uneducated reader... Sigh......

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2001-12-30
Sean Ackley <securityfocus@ackind.net>

This article is right on the money! Lets start a class action lawsuit for every infraction. Maybe these companies will learn. Micro$oft is an obvious target, but there are other firms as well.

sda-...

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Sue them ALL!!! 2001-12-31
JeffM (1 replies)

Yeah, good idea!! I would love to sue BIND for that bug last year. Once they are out of business I can buy a Redhat 6.1 book cheap and install the RH 6.1 OS in the back of it. Once I get broken into I can then sue them! What a wonderful moneymaker this would be! After that would get Linus for ...

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Get a brain... 2002-01-04
Matt Hargraves

You're really that blind, aren't you?

Require registration (don't they do this with cars?) and notify the customer via snail mail or e-mail (user's choice) when a bug is found so that they can fix it. Give them a manual that's worth a damn and the burden is on the user to actually read it to lim...

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Save the Net, Sue a Software Maker 2002-01-11
Blacksheep

Amen!...

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